NF: My name is Neely Fuller Jr. and I've been in contact with in sort of a loose fashion with some of the people that work here at the space center principally John Bilal and several other people. Just talking about different things that have to do with what some people call diversity, multi-culturalism, problems in the workplace, but, basically what I talk about is the central issue which I regard as the handle to just about any major problem. You'll notice that just by reading or hearing about it in most places in the world say what we call Norway, Sweden, Denmark, the people are sort of homogeneous as they say so its easier for them to come up with solutions to problems. They'll have conflicts and they can iron them out and they know just about what wave length everybody is on so its easier. In the greater world some ne thought of the idea of classifying everybody and their position based on color. When this happened I don't know. Its all speculation, but it has made a big problem since it did happen. It makes a problem everywhere 24 hours a day in all of these nine areas of activity (economic, education, entertainment, labor, law, religion, sex and war). This covers everything that everybody's doing any minute of any day anywhere on the planet. And since this is a space center you're dealing in everything going on in this planet and everything that will be going on presumably in all other bodies or that exists in what we call 'space'. But, the idea of racism is the dominant factor. Now I want to say something about that, everything that I say about race, racism, or anybody says and/or counter racism which means being against racism. I'm making up some words as I go along, counter racism is a word that as far as I know I coined. Just like you hear the term counter terrorism racism is a form of terrorism, it is the master form of terrorism. Everything that I'm saying should be questioned, I understand that a lot of people here are scientists, technicians and what not, so everything that I say should be questioned with the intention of finding and correcting errors. Everything, particularly when you're talking about 'race'. Because since the inception of the concept of 'race', whoever thought it up said that we gotta have two elements, just like the element you're putting into a rocket or something like that, you gotta have two tools in order to establish what we call 'race-ism'. You gotta have deceit and you've gotta have violence. Deceit is an indirect form of violence. When somebody is trying to fool you maliciously, on the job, anything else, they are doing violence to you. On the job includes say, Labor, but everything in these nine areas of activity are interactive with each other. Whatever you do in the area of economics, and I saw in the NASA Strategic Plan for the agency, as far as diversity and all like that, I saw the word 'economic' in it, economics is not in isolation. Economics effects everything else. Education effects everything else. Education effects economics, economics effects education, education effects politics, politics is involved in religion even though we've been told that we have separation of church and state. What exactly does that mean? So it comes down to also, the meaning of words. The chief tools of a racist is deceit and violence and the instrument of that deceit is words. I have some other things on here. Keep in mind everything that I say is supposed to be questioned. Don't be timid with me, we're talking about 'heavy duty' stuff here. We're talking about what dominates, what motivates everybody on this planet 24 hours a day. Now a lot of people say, "no, all I think about is just paying my bills", what you think about it the color of people and you do it all day long. Whether you realize it or not because everything that the people on this planet have been taught is based on deciding what it means to be what color. All day long, you have to do this, that is a total requirement. Here again, everything that I say must be questioned.

MR: Why is it a total requirement?

NF: Because of a system. That system is called. Do I have it on the board? Yes, (point to the word 'white supremacy') race is racism..

MR: I mean I understand..

NF: ...and racism is white supremacy.

MR: Well, I don't, why, why, white supremacy?

NF: Cause that's what it is.

MR: Is that the only kind of racism their can be?

NF: That's the only kind.

MR: Why?

NF: Because the white supremacists say so. That's what it means by 'supremacy'.

MR: So are we supposed to listen to everything they say?

NF: Oh, they make it so, because now you're talking about who has power and who is smart. The smartest people on this planet at this time come from people who are within what we usually call 'white people', loosely. Alright, the smartest people on this planet. The smartest people of the white people who believe in white supremacy.

MR: I, I, I, I don't follow that logic at all, I don't follow it at all.

BG: I don't agree with it.

NF: Who are the smartest people on this planet?

BG: Its an individual thing. I could show you white people that I'm much smarter than.

NF: Uh, huh.

BG: I could show you black people...

NF: I'm talking about collectively.

BG: People with PHd's.

NF: See when you speak of white supremacy you're talking about an organization. Really the only one.

BG: That's a generality that I don't know if we totally buy in on it.

NF: Then what we come down to is, either I am here for a bogus purpose or I'm here for an excellent purpose but I don't know what I'm doing. Now, that's what it really comes down to, we're talking science here. Political science can be an exact science. And white supremacy is a total exact science. Everything, nothing is left out.

MR: But, but, White, White supremacy isn't everything. Its not the world, its not the world. It's not the totality of everything that exists. So I mean, yeah if you're talking abouts, and maybe that's where we differ, is, is you're sitting here saying that's all there is. Well, I think there is something else.

JD: What is it?

MR: Pardon?

JD: What is it?

MR: What, what else is there? Well, I would certainly say believe that there are uh things other than absolute uh, you know, white supremacist society. I think when you go from a larger society, to a smaller society, it certainly depends upon where you are as to whether or not who has the power. Uh, if you talk about the entire global economy, uh, I think one could make a reasonable case, global economy, global power then one could make a reasonable case that, uh, uh, whites have a substantially upper hand, but, certainly you can't make that case if you talk you know, about smaller groups. I could feel, for example, very intimidated if I were to go into certain areas. It could be very intimidating, to go into certain areas and people can exercise power. Black people, oriental people.

NF: I have a question.

MR: If I were to go to China I'd have a helluva time sitting there saying...

NF: I have a question.

MR: OK.

NF: Who can blow up who in the next fifteen minutes?

MR: Who can? Anybody.

NF: When we talk about color.

JB: I can't. You can't say things like that.

NF: No, I mean, I mean, world wide. Pure muscle, as Michael Corleone would say in the mob, "hey, who's got the muscle".

MR: Now, lets see, the Chinese can, the Chinese can, the Indians can, the United States can, the French can, the Soviets can, maybe the Israelis can...Uh..

NF: We're talking about bottomline power, we're not talking about secondary power, I'm not talking about ricochet power. I have ricochet power. If I had a gun on me right now, I could take out that gun and shoot you. Alright, right this minute.

MR: Absolutely.

NF: Now, having done that, and its being done right out there on the streets right now. I live in an area where its done all the time. But, the people do it and they run. Now who are the really running from? They're not running from me. I'm the person that they robbed and shot at. That's just a small example of. Now, worldwide... I'm making statements now, they're doing the correct thing by questioning this, I'm saying the smartest and most powerful people on this planet, I don't know about other planets, are people who believe in or practice white supremacy in all of these areas of activity. Now, if this is not true, like I said, I need to walk out that door. And forget about talking about anything. I need to do that right now because it means that what I am saying is not the truth.

AG: Ok, lets say if I followed your train of thought and I backed you and said that I believe that white supremacy was the most intelligent.

NF: White supremacists.

AG: Logically speaking I'd say that I believe those folks who bombed in Oklahoma were intelligent, and I felt that was the smart thing to do. And I can't see that as a parallel. And I can't sit here and say I can understand why you make that statement.

NF: Oh, Ok, well just go through the process of elimination like we started while ago. If they are not, who is?

AG: Why does one group have to be...

NF: If a white person who doesn't believe in white supremacy is the smartest person, or black person for that matter, if a black person is the smartest person, black people collectively, or black people as individuals, if they are the vehicle that makes everything happen, they why do we keep talking about this thing called racism? And acting like it won't go away? And that everybody has to answer to it regardless of what they do and where they are on this planet including one billion Chinese.

BG: But, we have other problems too, theres crime, that everybody has to answer to...

NF: Wha,... Lets take it one at a time, lets take it one at a time...

BG: I understand what you're saying, Um, theres poverty...

NF: Wait a minute, lets take it one at a time.

Laughter of group

NF: Wait a minute, in science you have to take one thing at a time. If you're going to measure something, you take one inch at a time otherwise that rocket doesn't move right. You said crime, like what?

BG: Just like a shooting.

NF: Like a shooting a drive by shooting?

BG: A drive by shooting...even your white supremacist has to address crime, has to be worried about it, crime.

NF: Yes! And see it goes to show you that's what I mean by how shrewd they are. They manufacture the situations that makes all of these things happen because if they decide that its not going to happen, not you, you're non-white. Are you classified as non-white?

BG: Uh huh.

NF: Theres a reason for that too, now, who classified you as non-white.

BG: Nature.

NF: Nature?

Laughter of the group.

NF: No, wait a minute...classified... I didn't say who gave you the color. Who determines...who walked up and down this table and determined who is white and who is not? I say its this (points to the word 'white supremacy'). They make all the rules. That why its this word 'supremacy' is, see its not just white. I'm not saying all white people. I'm saying the smartest and most powerful people on this earth who tell everybody who is non-white what to do 24 hours a day and what not to do, that's white supremacy. That's my premise.

BG: Well..

NF: Its either true or false.

BG: Well to bring this to what we are more concerned about, workforce diversity. I don't think that anyone in here would argue that there is one percent of the population that has the money and all this other stuff and that's theres a problem. That's why we have a workforce diversity group. If there is a white supremacy. If white supremacy does exist, if black supremacy exist or if problems exist, the reason why we have this workforce diversity group is to make sure that they can work together. We're not going to stop that. We're not going to stop it.

NF: Wait, wait a minute, wait as minute... You're not going to stop what?

BG: People have...

NF: Well, wait a minute...You're not gonna...

BG: ...preconceived notions

NF: Maybe..

BG: Preconceived notions.

NF: Okay wait a minute, preconceived notions.

BG: And that's black as well as white ...

NF: At this space station...

BG: ...as well as Chinese.

NF: Wait a minute out here at this space station everybodys got a preconceived notion. You see words are everything, you see we're dealing with science here. I didn't come here to talk about preconceived notions. I came here to talk about white supremacy and the problems that it causes.

BG: Okay.

NF: You've got the three categories of people on this planet. White people, non-white people and white supremacists. The white supremacists tell the non-white people what to do, and the other white people either go along with it and become white supremacists or they perish. That's the premise.

BG: My question is, how...what can you tell us so we can all work together as one complete system?

NF: No, what, what you do is change the system. Now, you asked the correct question.

BG: That's what we'd like to see. What can we do to change the system so we all (unintelligible) together?

NF: Alright, two things starting in the workplace. You said, okay, we're gonna walk though it. In the workplace, you hear this word quality, the way you get quality is to eliminate something that's not quality. The main factor you have in a lack of quality management is deceit. Somebody fools you. Somebody doesn't tell you about the promotion that's coming down. Now, people sometimes ask me, how can, rather than just beat up on white people, how can a white person help to do something about this mess that they call racism. Its easy. You just scientifically look, what is the problem? Deceit, that's number one. White people who believe in racism will not go to a non-white person and tell them the truth hardly about anything. If you want to find out whether or not you are a racist just ask yourself how many times in one year do you tell a non-white person something that's not so. That's number one, cause deceit has two parts and how many times do you tell, or rather correction, how many times do you withhold constructive information to a non-white person. And that's a big one!

MR: Now if you withhold, you'd do the same thing...

NF: Who?

MR: Anybody.

NF: Okay.

MR: A person in a position of power...

NF: A person in a position of power.

MR: A person in a position of power. And quite frankly as far as I'm concerned its a very common thing where a person in a position of power wants to retain the power, and a very common way that that is done is to ensure that others don't gain enough power to overtake them. I don't know that that's necessarily racially based. I think it, it, it, its, thoroughly common in in people to want retain power whether they're black whether they're white or whether they're oriental.

NF: Okay, a baby, a baby, a baby wants power...

MR: If you want to limit others power especially if you perceive that it will take the power away from you and and and so I have a little problem with you sitting there relating that to the fact that this is purely racially motivated.

NF: Uh Huh

MR: You set there and you say that if someone comes down and that they are racist if they limit the, you know, information and if they don't pass out all of the information to someone who is a person of color. Well I'll tell you exactly the same thing happens if you're a white person and they want to control power. Information certainly can keep someone in a position of power and I think that uh whether color is an issue or isn't.

NF: Should it?

MR: Should it? No, I, I,...

NF: No, no, what you're saying,...what you're saying,

MR: If you want to have a...

NF: Okay.

MR: Fair and totally equitable system, no, I don't think that it should but I think that its very foolish to sit there and say that it isn't gonna happen.

NF: Just the word you just used right now. See that's why I'm saying, words are important. All the words you use are important. The racists are so shrewd they'll come up with a word like 'fair'. Fair means what? Using mathematical terms, equals what?

MR: What does 'fair' equal?

NF: Yes.

MR: Uh, I, I'm sure you'll have some different ones, Justice.

NF: Fair equals Justice..fair also means what?

DK: Equitable.

MR: Average.

NF: No, Justice was good enough. Now now 'fair' means something else. In the way that I was taught. See we have to completely change the language. See that's one reason I'm here too. The language that you use everyday is supportive of this (points to the word White Supremacy on blackboard). 'Fair' means white. And then you take 'fair' and put it... (DK appears to object non-verbally) Fair doesn't mean white?

KH: As in pale.

NF: 'Fair' doesn't mean white?

DK: Oh, okay, okay.

NF: She is 'fair', My Fair Lady, haven't you heard that?

DK: I thought you meant like 'welfare' you know.

(Laughter)

NF: I'm saying one thing that the supremacists did when they set up a system they went over every word in the language with a computerized comb. And they. (MR appears to object).

NF: Oh yes, oh yes.

MR: I didn't know they had computers back in those days.

NF: Oh yes they did it with a computer. You know the best computer there is?

MR: The human mind.

NF: There you go! That how the box gets there on the table.

PH: You started you're nine areas of activity with number one being 'Economics', can you tell me why you started there?

NF: Alphabetical order.

PH: Alphabetical order?

NF: Cause they all mix and match anyway. If you're dealing in economics you're dealing in politics. If you're dealing in politics you're dealing in Law. Law...

PH: Lets...Lets go back and stretch that a bit, okay.

NF: Sir?

PH: Lets go back and stretch economics.

NF: Yes sir, okay.

PH: Okay, you say supremacy if you starting with economics, that's where you're starting at, the base which you're starting from. Would you agree that.

NF: Whoa, wait a minute, say it again.

PH: Starting with the basis of economics, the basis of economics.

NF: No that's...economics by definition is the use of time and energy. That's all it is.

PH: The use of time and energy.

NF: So that means...

PH: To produce what?

NF: Now, to produce a product.

PH: For what?

NF: Well, in this case...

PH: Come on, for what?

NF: Wha, wha, well wait a minute

PH: I'm asking, I'm waiting for the answer.

NF: You're asking what is the purpose of what now. See I'm trying to get the question first.

PH: My question is time and energy to produce what?

NF: Whoever decides how time and energy will be used.

PH: For what value?

NF: The value of...You mean among people on this planet right now?

PH: On the planet right now.

NF: (Writes White Supremacy on the blackboard) That's what I'm talking about. It's difficult to see because we're so close to it. It's like any.. Its like standing right up against a wall with a, with a huge painting its very hard for you to tell what that painting is about. You stand back, look at the whole nine areas, look at the entire world, look at all the people moving on this planet right now and little by little, even using Huckleberry Finn or Tom Sawyer logic. Little by little, country boy logic, you begin to see. Wait a minute, what is going on here and for what reason? You have to come to that conclusion. Why are all these people moving around so mysteriously going about doing their things and it seems like everything is based on color. Now at some point you'll perceive this, even if you came from the planet Krypton. Everything is based on color. All of the movements of people. On this planet, and then you say now, why is this? Just like everything else that people do, somebody thought it up. Now we've been on this treadmill for so long that we're so close to it, that we don't even see it. We just take it for granted. When we get up in the morning we say hey I don't think... I'm not a racist! I don't think about race! I think about paying my bills, I think about driving my car, see if theres enough gas in it. I think about this, I think about that, I think about Christmas coming up... That's another story.

(Laughter)

NF: See but everything that goes on is dominated by this practice. And this is a hard pill for people to swallow. People say, hey, I'm an American! Ain't no where close to being nothing like that. If you use the correct definition.

KH: Part of the hard part, I think, for us to swallow that pill too, is that there are so many connotations with the term, 'white supremacy'...

NF: I know, for one thing, its loaded for bear.

KH: From what we saw last week, you know, is that it...it pulls inside your gut and its the worst feelings of hatred. Um, that come out in you if you use those kind of terms. You think about the nazism, the violent overthrow of the government and all like that. In my mind as I've been sitting here listening to you speak I go back and try to remember how has the culture that we have in this country come to where we are? You go back to Europe to when the whiteman came over here, uh and even before that everything was Eurocentric. Originated from Europe. Even when they began going back and the archaeological digs and all, the people, the scientists there at that time couldn't come to terms with the concept anything other than evolution being centered in Europe. And, you know, maybe, maybe all of those things go to the 'white supremacy' thing too because there, I think we've got to recognize the problem. There is in the world a some origins of (long pause) Eurocentric society I think, does exist in the world. And maybe that's a term that we can deal with. White Supremacy though, digs at the hate feelings people have and have identified with the culture.

NF: Say that again.

KH: White supremacy...

NF: White Supremacy...

KH: Is something that people identify with...

NF: Is something that people identify with...

KH: With terms of the hate feelings that nobody wants to recognize...

NF: With terms of hate feelings that nobody wants to recognize. It come down to a question. (Writes question: "Does white supremacy exist"? on the blackboard) That's a key question I ask everywhere. Either it does or it doesn't. See that's not an either,... I mean that is an either or thing.

MR: Absolutely, it exists.

NF: Okay.

MR: So does black supremacy and ...

NF: Wai, wai, wait hold it, hold it.

MR: No, no, no, no...

NF: Well, lets take one thing at a time.

MR: If you're gonna say the one exists, you know, don't limit the conversation to set there and ...

NF: I'm not limiting, I didn't want you to go too far.

MR: Oh, I know you didn't want me to go too far.

NF: You mentioned a term! I'm gonna put that term on the board.

MR: Okay.

NF: We're talking science here.

MR: Well, no, I don't know that we're talking science, we're talking...

NF: We're supposed to be talking science, otherwise, you've got a rabble rouser up here.

MR: No, I mean, I would not want to...

NF: Whatever you'd want to call me, rabble rouser, fanatic, crazy person, trouble maker.

PH: Lets, lets, lets, take away the words 'black' and 'white' supremacy and put the word 'gold' up there...okay.

NF: We'll put the word 'gold'?

PH: Yeah.

NF: Lets try it, now lets deal with one thing at a time then we'll get to gold.

PH: No, lets put the gold and green up there.

NF: Gold and green. (writes gold and green on blackboard)

PH: Gold and green up there, okay.

NF: Now, what are we gonna do with it?

PH: Now, lets talk about supremacy.

NF: Okay, well, can I just, can I talk about the other words first?

PH: No, lets talk about...

NF: Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute...This gentleman mentioned something about fear and hatred. You may not have mentioned fear, I heard you mention hatred, you see, I like to be exact. This term engenders hatred, that's what you said. Maybe we could use some other term correct. Maybe apartheid, racial segregation, animosity. See, in other words, we're getting farther and farther away from what I came out here to talk about, because I know that this is where it is, now, I've been through this, I go through this all the time. Just this little exercise we're doing here. See, this is what people cringe, they back away, from these two words. These two words are loaded for bear. And I know that I walk into any audience and I'm gonna...and theres gonna be a big problem just by everybody in that audience. Cause I got a saying...when you talk about what the truth is and you use the term white supremacy, and its attached to truth, two things are automatically gonna happen...white people are gonna get offended and black people are gonna get painfully embarrassed. That's a given...that's solid...you can take that to the bank. I mean everybody gets nervous. They're just words! Everybody that walked in that door, I mean, you know, not hardly feeling much of anything except you're in this room. All of a sudden some words appear on the board and everybody begins to withdraw. Fear, hatred maybe. Now, you haven't said who does the hating. Now I have been accused of being a hater because I used the term. Person told me outright, you're spreading hate. I said, I'm just explained something, I'm explaining a scientific-political phenomenon that people say exists. I didn't invent these two words. It just like you come to the space center and somebody shows you a rocket ship, you probably didn't invent the rocketship, but, somebody told you,
that is a rocketship. I'm saying there is such a thing as 'white supremacy' or there isn't. And we're taking a lotta time up on this because...

MR: You said a lot more than that. I don't think anyone's gonna argue with you...

NF: Okay.

MR: ...that theres white supremacy. I hope no one will argue with you that theres black supremacy...

NF: Okay, what is then what is the argument when it gets to gold and green and what not?

MR: ...Or other connotations. I think that the issue that I have is that that's the overriding consideration in everything. And that's the problem I have with what I heard you say.

NF: (Unintelligible)

MR: Not that it exists, not even that, maybe it is a much bigger problem than the others...but I can't, but I can't buy that it is the reason for everything, I can't buy that.

NF: Okay, you can't buy it? I'm listening to what you're saying, you can't buy it...

MR: That's correct.

MR&NF: (Unintelligible)

NF: Wait a minute, but, wait a minute, ...but, but, sir, lets take one thing at a time please. You said you can't buy it, you can't buy it because its what...true or false?

MR: What is true or false?

NF: Does white supremacy exist? Its either true or false.

MR: Absolutely it exists.

NF: It sounds like we have a contradiction here.

MR: Does black supremacy exist?

NF: We don't have a contradiction here?

MR: (Unintelligible) Answer my question, I answered your question.

NF: Okay.

MR: Does black supremacy exist?

NF: Totally impossible.

MR: Totally impossible?

NF: Totally impossible.

MR: Totally impossible, why?

NF: Because this exists. (points to the word 'White Supremacy' on the black board) Can't have it in the same universe...not for five minutes.

MR: That's not true, not true, well why not?

NF: Okay, alright.

MR: Show me why you cannot have both.

NF: Give me an example...see you do it just like you do detective work or science work right here at the space center. You make a premise, and then you go back and see if you can prove you're premise by close and infinitesimal...if I'm pronouncing the work correct, correctly...examination. I have heard this term kicked around. (Writes the term 'Black Supremacy' on the black board) I have never found black people supreme anyplace. Or heard about it. I've travelled a little bit, I've talked to people who've been to places where I haven't been. Don't know where it exists anyplace.

JB: Why don't we take the example and look at the management at Goddard and see by pure statistics... (unintelligible) ...you're talking, you brought up gold and green.

PH: I brought up gold and green...Okay. Let me...

JB: Oh, we're talking about color.

PH: We're talkin... we're not talking about color.

NF: We're not talking about color? Wait a minute, what is this... (points to the blackboard at the terms 'gold' and 'green').

PH: It is a color, okay, but, it is a metal color. Okay. Gold supremacy, we talk gold supremacy, we weigh everything in this world against the value of gold. Man has from creation has gone after precious metals and determined those to be the factor that he will weigh things by. We have a dollar bill, okay, the dollar that we work for everyday, we weigh this against what standard? The gold standard. We all strive for the same thing. Whether you be white, black, green or yellow we all strive for the same thing which is the dollar bill. Which is utilized to go out and get something. That why I asked initially why did you start with the word economics. Okay, because we're all here for one thing. We're here to provide, to earn dollars to provide for the things that we deem as necessary to support ourselves in one way or another. In one way or another.

NF: Who is 'we'.

PH: We as people. It's human nature...

NF: Wait a minute, we as who?

PH: As people, human beings.

NF: Well, do you think that there are people who have different agendas?

PH: Yeah.

NF: Do you believe that white supremacy exists?

PH: White supremacy does exist.

NF: What is the agenda of the white supremacists. Is it gold?

PH: ...its, its, its part of it.

NF: What is the main objective of being...for being a white supremacist?

PH: To control power.

NF: To control power over what.

PH: Over others.

NF: Over others like who?

PH: Over anybody who is not white.

JB: Exactly.

NF: Well, where, okay, then...could this not be (points to the terms 'gold' and 'green'), for the sake of hypothesis, an instrument of the white supremacists?

(Silence)

NF: Whatever that means, gold and green.

JB: Well gold is enough, somebody said that it was valuable. You know...

NF: Somebody said, ...stop and think about what you're saying. You see we're supposed to be getting an education in what diversity and multiculturalism and what problems in the world are all about when you strip it of all the non-sense language and look at people for what they are doing everyday. See, I'd like to liken myself to the little ignorant boy that came out of the hills who hadn't been told about the kings fine clothes. I came and looked at what people actually do, day after day, everytime they make a move...I came to certain conclusions. In other words, I'm the little ignorant boy who saw that the emperor had no clothes. I'm making that plain. Rather than going by everything that I've been told...because, I've been told some whoppers. Starting from grade school. I've been told who is pretty, right in grade school! I had black teachers that taught me systematically, that the prettiest woman in the world is a white woman. Because, not because she was mean to me, but because that was her assignment in that school and if she hadn't taught that she'd be out of there. And how did she teach us? By opening a book that she was assigned to teach out of and said, "This is Cinderella, this is Goldilocks", ... I'm looking around my class and I don't see anybody that looks like that. And you might say its changing now. Its changing because of discussions like this! This is how it changes, it doesn't change automatically.

JB: But, do you think that (unintelligible) its like its subliminal.

NF: You can turn on the television right now. Who, who, whats the criteria? Beauty and the Beast! Go into the supermarket and what do you see? (Writes Snow White on the black board) Right there at the checkout counter. Right there by the checkout counter. Subliminal, just like you said, now, there are millions of these. Not just one or two. Millions of these messages that you are bombarded with twenty four hours a day.

JB: Did the white supremacist come up with that? Or does it...

NF: I am not in position, because I don't have the power to say who did it. All I can say is the evidence shows that its there. And I've got a suspect. The suspect is the white supremacists. Who else would come up talking about... gonna describe a person now, and then put the emphasis on what?! Color! The color of the person. That doesn't tell you about anything else. Yet we say that color doesn't make any difference. Why is this emphasized? My Fair Lady, box office hit...forever. Fair... meaning what? (Writes the term 'white' on the blackboard) And also fair meaning 'Justice'. So you go before the Fair Employment Practices Committee, meaning White Employment Practices. See how a word like 'white' that doesn't sound anything like Justice. I mean a word like 'fair' is made synonymous with the word 'Justice'. Also if you see a picture...you see a scale in many cases, sometimes in isolation, sometimes with a person standing behind it. You ever noticed what that person looks like? Exactly what you were taught in school...a fair lady. Meaning a white lady holding the scales. The scales gonna go which ever way she says. Ask O.J. (Pause) Am I a demagogue?

(Laughter of group)

NF: I could be. I could be a very skilled craftsperson dealing with this race issue, but, now somebody said I got away from what we we're talking about.

CT: Yeah, you know that's my concern...

NF: But really that's what you're talking about.

CT: He was asking about the gold and the green.

MB: Can I suggest just as a means of facilitating the discussion, because you know time is going on, maybe we can hold some of these questions until he finishes his presentation, and then, if you have a question that you're really pressed about asking go ahead but lets try and not get into these drawn out discussions. At this point lets agree that we disagree on some...

NF: Yeah, we'll agree that we disagree on probably everything that I've said...okay. Yeah, the individual...its up to you to decide whether theres anything to what I am saying or whether this is worth absolute nothing, its going to produce absolutely nothing. I make the premise that I have to really, as far as I am concerned, I have to live by it. I have to live by all the beliefs that I just described. This is the only way that I can function without winding up on somebodys psychiatrist table,... really. To go and explain to me something in a very general fashion something that will get me away from what I perceive to be the truth. The little boy came out of the hills and saw that king had no clothes and called it that. Hey, the king ain't got on no clothes, now ya'll can talk all you want to, I'm looking at the king. Black people and white people got a problem! And there are plenty of black people who will say, no we don't have, because I've got a white girlfriend or a white boyfriend. So we don't have no problem. That's another part of the white supremacists scheme, but I'm not gonna get into that. I'm gonna get into the labor part, I started into it awhile ago. I said, but, I had to start with that premise. If the white people here at this installation, just start making it a practice that when they talk to a black person, you just don't tell a lie. Why, because...deceit. If you don't leave here with anything else, this is the most important lesson. Forget about the rest of everything I said. That's just a frame of reference. But, lets say for the sake of what we call starting this big humanity that we're gonna create in outer space via star trek or star this that and the other. Lets say that what we're trying to do is make the world a better place. Now even some people who are bible scholars...now I don't want to get into religion...however, it is on the board, say that the trouble started with deception. Somebody started trying to fool somebody. So, if you have a race problem anywhere, might not be one here at Goddard Space Center, this could be heaven. This could be the place where everybody in the world wants to be...to find out how to get along with people. It could be, I don't know. Get rid of the deceit. That's the first step. Even the red people said, forked tongue. Say one thing, mean another. And I hear it from black people all the time, "they told me, they promised me", I've heard it as far back as I remember. Plus...I...have said it. "I thought"...it didn't work out that way. Why, because somebody was trying to fool me. "Well, you come in next thursday and we'll talk about it", and then before you walk out the door, (makes a contorted face)(group laughter)... sucker! He doesn't know that he's gonna be out of here in about three weeks. I know this is true, cause I'm getting it from a lot of black people right now who are calling me and say, "Hey, when you first came and did all that talking, I told everybody, that's a damn fool, ignorant, crazy nigger if ever there was one, and then there are people who call me and say I think the man is correct". "I think this is a system and maybe it is worldwide". Just because that person called me and said it doesn't make it true. You got to a very important thing there, you said 'hate' matters. This may make someone want to hate. That's not what I'm here for. I do not hate white people. Alright, I don't hate anybody. I'm much too fragile to be in that kind of business. But I will call what I see, what see, unless you can make me see something other than whats there. And I'm saying deceit out here at this space center is probably a problem because its a problem all over the world. You hit on it a while ago sir, when you said that people want power. But it comes down to, for what? In order to do what? Sure a baby wants power, you watch a baby in a crib. A baby wants to hold on to something. If you give it your finger or a nipple or anything, they'll hold on to it. That's seeking power. But it comes down to, for what? Mussolini made the trains run on time. You can get things done through power. But, getting things done in order to accomplish what? Now depending on what your goals are, your goal should be to produce a product, I should have it on the board... called Justice. Justice, according to a definition that I made up, a compensatory definition, is, balance between people. Which means; guaranteeing that the person that needs help the most get the most help. And...

MR: Where does it say that's true?

NF: And guarantee the person that needs help the most gets the most help and guaranteeing that no one is mistreated.

MR: That was your definition.

NF: What is the definition that I produced, reason being...

MR: I just wanted to know where it came from.

NF: Oh yes, that's correct, that's correct, everything that I say should be, you know,... just like you started out. You started out saying hey, wait a minute. Don't let anybody... You don't know who I am... You don't know what I've been sent here for... You don't know who sent me... You just see some person standing up here talking glib. I may be talking total nonsense. But, whats the message there? To keep down deceit. Cause I could be the agent of a deceiver sent here to produce confusion. Alright. What did they say in 'I Claudius', what did Herod tell Claudius? He said, "Trust no one". "Trust no one". Remember a movie called the "Treasure of Sierra Madre", Walter Houston talking to Tim Holt. He said, "I'm trustworthy". He said, "That doesn't say that I'm honest". He said, I'm trustworthy because you all can leave the gold with me, cause I can't go nowhere with it, cause I'm too old, and therefore you all can go, you and Humphrey Bogart can go and come back and I'll be here. He said, I am the most trustworthy of the three of us, based on science. Cause you mentioned gold awhile ago, that's why I threw this in. If you saw the picture 'Treasure of Sierra Madre', they were trying to figure out who would go to town and who was gonna be left with the gold. Walter Houston said, "Leave me with the gold". They said, why you? He said, cause you know after I run off with it, I'm too old, I'm not gonna get very far and you all will catch me and beat me to death. You all are young so you go to town and get the supplies and when you come back, the gold will be here. He said, its not because I'm honest, its because I'm trustworthy. See, so what we want to do here at the space center and everywhere in the world, is produce a situation where people,... you're not gonna make people honest like what he said, people seek power. But they're gonna be trustworthy because they are going to reduce, or they're gonna try, or you should try to reduce the deceit. In other words, if a person can't fool you, its not too much they can do against you. Cause you'll be in their face shortly. This is what the racists are supreme skilled people at doing. Will look you right in your eye and tell you the biggest lie in the world. "I'm trying to thank,.. trust me, trust me", like in the mob. You'll wind up in a cement case. So just ask people to do this, don't deceive. If you don't get anything else, cause we're running out of time and some people are getting bored with the whole presentation cause they don't have any stock in it. It could be cause they're not being deceived.

TF: Mr. Fuller, could you give an example of what you mean by,... uh, I know mean by it... but you give an example if one of us in this room may be dealing with being deceived by some white supremacists.

NF: If you're a victim of racism, and I consider myself as being that, that's how I identify myself. A victim of white supremacy, that's what I've been all my life. I am being deceived. I being deceived right now. Right this minute. Somebody is fooling me. Somebody is doing things that are designed to hurt me that I don't know about. That's deception. If they're doing it in the workplace. If somebody is down the hall writing up something that is going to hurt you, you are being deceived. Because you don't know about it. Particularly if they're gonna hold it and spring it on you later on. That's deception, and that is also violence. Deception is one of the worst forms of violence. Its like if I walk up to you on a street corner and I smile, and I say "hi buddy". Okay, now I'm deceiving you because you don't know whats going down. I'd say, is that the bus coming? So you look and I (makes a motion as if to strike a blow at someone and ends it striking his own hand with a loud smack). And you're flattened out. That hurts you worst than me, two blocks away saying, hey, if I see you I'ma bust yo jaw. I'ma be back here fifteen minutes later and if you're standin on this corner, I'ma bust yo jaw. Now that is the threat of violence, but, its not deception, cause the guy told you what he's gonna do. The racists do not tell you what they're gonna do. You get blindsided. Twenty four hours a day on your rent and everything else. The hidden cost called the race tax. You pay it when you buy a car. Here she comes,... colored girl. Go out there and talk to her Willie. I know she doesn't have a man with her. She doesn't have a man anywhere cause I'm the man. She's black. The system of white supremacy takes black males away from black females and teaches black males to bust it up. People put up money behind it. I went out here and made a record right now that called a black female a 'bitch' or a 'whore', I'd get support. From who? From white people. If I do anything that's gonna be complimentary that's a no-no. That's what I mean by the awesomeness of white supremacy. Somebody mentioned the gold, that's where the gold comes from. White supremacist control everything on this earth. Everything. They have to. All these nine areas of activitity in order to control me. If I want some money I don't ask any black person for a job. He doesn't have a job himself. I have to go to somebody white. That's what I mean ladies and gentlemen. That's what that means. You don't see white people lined up with their babies in their arms and at the end of that line theres some black person with their feet up on the desk saying I don't know whether I'll hire you people or not. Where do you see that? You don't even see that in the Congo. You see black people, huge lines of them everywhere, all over this planet. If you went up in a ship right now, a space ship and looked down on this planet you would see it. Long lines of downtrodden people. Beat up, out of it, black people. Some of them trying to look intelligent. But they're all begging. That's what this means. This hurts, but its the truth. You see you start with the truth you can solve any problem.

JB: Can you answer the question that was asked about black supremacy. Can you answer that?

NF: I thought I did, I said, if you have this. Speaking mathematically. Social mathematics. If this exists (points to the term white supremacy), this can't exist (points to the term black supremacy). That's impossible. You cannot have white supremacy and black supremacy at the same time. They don't fit into the same box. I just got through giving you an illustration. And he was mentioning economics, when you see people lined up asking for jobs, even though there might be a black person sitting there with their feet on the desk, like the illustration I gave, who is standing behind the black person? Even in Africa. That's why I don't get on that, this multi-cultural thing that everybody is trying to start even in agencies, should be scrapped. Kill that. That is zero. That's another white supremacist trick. I'm saying it outright. What is culture? Culture is whatever you do. That's all your culture is. If I smoke cigarettes, that's my culture. If I drive a car, that's my culture. When I sit in that chair that's my culture. When I get up out of the chair, that's my culture. Culture is what you do. Not some mythical thing hanging around in a cloud around the planet Krypton. But the white supremacists have got black people running around here say, Oh, I could give a job but you don't know enough about your culture. Go find your culture. I think it's in a pink box, six inches away from the great pyramid. Dig down about sixty feet, you might find it. Come back and show it to me and I'll see what your qualifications are for being treated like a person. That's a wild goose chase. And black people go trixing off to Egypt thinking that they're gonna find some kinda magic there, other than a whole lot of hungry people meeting them at the airport. That's the brutal truth. But you can't beat it. And I know about, I know how,... I can stand up here and talk like this cause I was the biggest runaway in the world, from this thing about color. Anybody came around talking about race and color, I would say, "I don't wanna hear, get, get, get, get away from meee". I would do an Archie Bunker in a minute. Get away from me, get away from me, Get Away! Whether you were black or white. Color don't make no difference and I don't want to hear it. Then I kept running places trying to find someplace where it didn't make a difference. I finally flattened out from exhaustion. And say Fuller you got to stop lying to yourself. Black people particularly, deceive themselves because its convenient. If that doesn't work they'll even get some narcotics or something. I think, but the whole idea, I got to fool myself because life is ugly. People talking about racism and poverty and all these terrible things. I've got to fool myself, I've got to lie to myself. So that I can be happy. But see, I've been talking here for what, all of my time, and all I did is made most people either, hey, the guy is crazy or I feel bad for a few minutes... I'm getting away from here and I'll feel like I felt before I came in here. That may be the result, I don't know.

(Interruption from tape change)

NF: I gotta put you on automatic and I can do this with words. Put a lot of words in your head. Alot of promises. And that's what keeps you going, right up into a blind alley, and then you want to know what happened to your children. Now it is beginning to fall apart and it should. And its not just a matter of just beating up on white people, that's not what this is about. Its getting rid of a social concept that never should have existed in the first place. The worlds business should have never been done on the basis of color. Even Nicole Brown Simpon's sister sat on the stand and equated O.J. Simpson with what? An Ape! You know where that came from? Folklore. Faye Raye and King Kong. Oh the big Ape, Oh, he's gonna rape me! The big black Ape! Did you know there was a movie called son of Kong? Son of Kong was an ape that went around helping people. Do you know the color of the son of Kong? White. Its in the stores. You see, I'm not making stuff up, except the things that I tell you I'm making up. (someone gets up to leave) Thanks for coming sir.

XX: You're welcome.

NF: Now, have I offended anybody in here? (Pause) Have I embarrassed anybody in here? Does anybody have an opinion of me they'd like to express without being deceptive.

KH: You're a very rare person, one of the few people who can provoke people to, and not be discouraged about how nervous you make them. As long as you make them think.

NF: You know something? Now, I'm witnessing just what I've been talking about. It was a white person who spoke.

(Laughter)

NF: No, I yeah, No, No, No, I'm saying, this is very important! This is very important, because black people are taught, particularly when theres a black person speaking. We're sitting back and taught that. That is why black people kill each other on the street every night. To be suspicious of each other. Its a wonder... and they're correct, cause I've been robbed on the streets. Okay, its frightening thing. I been to Korea as a soldier and what not...I was never more frightened than when a black person came up...put a gun on me, and I said, "Oh my god, this is my last day on earth". Because these guys out here with the nine millimeters mean business. But I also know where the nine millimeters come from. And I know when they suddenly showed up too. They showed up right with the narcotics, and I know why that was. I was right after the so-called civil rights movement and somebody white said, the way you control these people, we can't do it with words any more maybe, but we have to put something in their veins. We have to get the hooked on crack cocaine, make it cheap so they can get it and then you give them the guns. Don't give them the guns before then or they'll be out here rioting...against white people. Don't give them the guns before you give them the dope. Give them the dope first... let it take root and then hand them the nine millimeter. That'll take care of all of the nine areas of activity. You'll wipe them out! Or keep them to a (unintelligible) function. When they come to get a job they'll be nodding. They'll be needing a fix. You got them just where you want them. The white supremacists system produces two types of black people...monsters and monstrosities. I'm a monstrosity,...

JB: (Unitelligible)

NF: What? ... because I'm standing here talking about a subject that never should have had to be talked about in the first place. If the world had been made the way it had been in the first place. Somebody thought about putting everything on a color standard. And its up to the white people to decide that they're gonna take it off that standard, cause its not gonna happen any other way. The black people have to nudge them into it. Alright,... which is what I'm doing now, which means I'm asking you a tall order if you're white. You have to change your entire way you look at the world. And that is a tall order. If I was a white person, I would look at that and I'd say good god, hey, I ain't changing nothing. I'm comfortable. Cause what you're basically asking me is to give up a lot of comfort. You're asking me to take things that I value and say that they are valueless. Or a lot of, somebody said that it came from fear. And I have asked white people this. And I haven't had a white person admit to it yet. Fear of genetic annihilation. In other words, when a black male goes into a white female, sexually, and you get a baby from that...the baby is gonna be non-white. I talked to fellas as far back as thirty years ago and white men told me that that was what they feared. Well if this is so, cut out the non-sense and say so! But I haven't had a white person recently, I have talked with several white people and raised that question...none of them would tell the truth, according to my evaluation. Or else I'm missing something. No, I never think like that. Yet they keep having white babies. Whats going on here? When a white person...a white person will move into a so-called black neighbor, even put up with his car being broken into, which its going to be, alright, as long as he doesn't have or she doesn't have offspring. Its only when they have children, they think, uh oh, I don't want my children... I have a daughter...I've got a blond haired blue eyed daughter here. When I look at my daughter's offspring, I want to see, blond hair and blue eyes, because that what I got in my family, aright. If they go over there at school and start fooling around with those hip hop black guys and have a baby its not gonna look like the people in my family. Its gonna look like some strange object, that we usually don't have walking in this house. So, no, we are going to move Helen, to another neighborhood. Now, when I talk to white people on an individual level, one on one, a white person will tell me, yeah, that's whats bothering me. You get them in an open forum like this...whoever heard of that? Haven't you seen this happen? Has anybody seen this happen? I've seen it happen, just a couple of weeks ago. I was at some white people's house, everybody said, it ain't so. You're paranoid! That not important to white people. What their children look like. And I sat there and I said, I have no reason to believe that you're telling me the truth. Based on evidence.

JB: Whats wrong with white people wanting their children to look like themselves?

NF: Absolutely nothing, but, see the problem is, you can't get white people to say so. If you don't believe it, try it. Run an experiment yourself, because once that is admitted to, it means, you are admitting to a problem that has to be solved. This is why the neighborhood changes. Because there are black people who say, hey, I don't steal hubcaps, I'm a professional. They will still move into a neighborhood... I talked to a black person some years ago, and he said,... you know what?.. I'm glad to get out of the ghetto, I'm out here now, where the white people are, where things are much nicer, where they clean the streets and all like this, I don't have to put up with the gun fire and all the rest of it. I don't have to worry about getting mugged. He said, I'm glad to be out here and he said and I don't have all these no good black people around me. That's what he was saying in effect. And I looked up and down the block...and it did look nice...and I said, hey, its one problem here. You're here!

(Laughter of group)

NF: Talking about ain't no black people out here, you're here! Cause under the system of white supremacy the word is out, the fact that you're here means everybody else is getting ready to move. I came back about six months later and there was for sale signs all up and down the block. He was just the first one that they let in, before the rest of them came, because all of the rest of the white people were planning on moving when they got the word...this place is turning black. And it comes down to I don't want my daughter having a baby by anybody that looks like Louis Armstrong.

TF: Mr. Fuller, can you go over something you said, Mr. Fuller you said that black people in here were going to be embarrassed or we are embarrassed by hearing this, the truth.

NF: By hearing what I'm saying, what I'm saying may not even be truthful. This maybe just a lot of babbling. You have to make that evaluation. But, I'm saying, if your telling the truth, and I don't know whether I hit it or not, that is going to be the result in this type of environment. White people are going to be offended and black people are going to be embarrassed. It gets real uptight, real quick.

TF: What are they embarrassed? Why are the black people embarrassed?

NF: I don't know, that's just the impression...I'm going by evidence...over a period of years, see, I've said this. They...given...participated in seminars like this, and that, is a given. And to keep people from being blindsided I usually really like people to know this before they walk in a door otherwise they feel like they're threatened. "Wha, wha, what have I got myself into, do I have to be bombarded with this"? I wanna keep on believing what I already believe. You know, and I don't wanna in an environment where somebody is even talking like this because the stuff I've made...but this gentleman said, because he has the confidence, that I think...now, this is my evaluation...because he's white, he has the confidence to that comes with being white. So, hey, he, (takes an aggressive posture) lets go to the moon! Naw! Naw! You caint go to the moon! Yo ain't nobody never done... Hey!... I'm going to the moon buddy! Watch me. I said, white people, there is a difference. So stop lying to yourself that there isn't. Now, is the difference genetic? No. Its just a difference in culture. What you choose to do. The white people who chose to be white supremacists...just like if you start out here now... I'm gonna choose to build a house. I think it was a black person, Memphis Slim, who said, "If you go life...", it was a blues song, "If you go through life, you can't help knowing, you can always get help but only the way you're going". Now this is whether you're black or white. Black people have very limited...because of the system of white supremacy...vision. Black people just look just forward to doing maybe two or three weeks ahead of time. Well I'm going to a party next week. What are you gonna do after that Ann? Well, I think I'll get me another job. What you gonna do after that Ann. Well, I might get married, if I find somebody. That's the way black people are trained, short vision. The white supremacists says, hey, well...lets take over the planet Jupiter. For what? Just for the hell of it, because we think we can do it. That's a different level of thinking all together. Black males walking around, his plan is...you know that new girl down the hall, I'm gonna get me some of that, then go and tell the white fella. That's his plan. Difference in planning, that's all.

JB: Are you saying white men don't do that?

NF: Yeah, but they do it while they're doing a whole lot of other things.

JB: Oh.

NF: See, in other words, they say we are going to the moon, while we are doing all of these other things in all of these nine areas of activity, in fact we are going to dictate to the non-white people what they are going to be doing in any given minute. Including who's gonna go to bed with who. Now, Sam you wanna get off so that you can go to bed with Ruth, come down the hall and ask me. That's what white supremacy means. We're talking power here.

BG: There's a lot good things that you said, and things that do exist, but, what I'd like, do you have any recommendation, how...what we can do to...um, get past the deceit? Or what we can to to fast forward the program.

NF: That's, that's, that's, your program. This is what this is, right now. This is your program. Your first step...I said...you first go for the jugular vein. The jugular vein of all of this confusion is deception.

BG: Well, one thing we can't do, I mean, to be honest...part of our truth, here at Goddard... we can't use the, you know, we're gonna whack you up side the head with this until you change. That's not gonna work here.

NF: Can't use...wait a minute, wait a minute, lets take the words...Whack you upside the head?

BG: Well like putting out a big sign, 'White Supremacy Exists, Lets Change It'. That's not gonna work here.

NF: No?

BG: We want to come up with another forum that's gonna work.

NF: Okay, lets just say that in your diversity, if you want to use that, in other words, that people are gonna put words in your mouth.

BG: No, No...

NF: Wait a minute, he brought it up...this is a volatile expression, and it is. Its supposed to be. When Thomas Jefferson and crew and all these people talking about revolution, that was volatile. But, you know what?...It was correct. Because Old King George didn't have no business dong what he was doing, even though, Thomas Jefferson didn't have no business doing some of the things he was doing.

BG: It is true, we change things that way too.

NF: Yes...

BG: We don't want to...

NF: Start with the words. Now, but, if you are told... talk about practicality now...if you are told, if you go somewhere, as a white person, hey, we had a fella in here talking about this white supremacy thing, and we don't want that kinda talk around here because it makes bad environment, its bad for business. It could be. So, you can sit down and say okay, what kind of words we gonna use? Whats that thing that somebody said when they mentioned depression? Some years ago. It was the secretary of Labor I think. He said hey, we're heading for a depression. He said, don't use that! Oh, you scare people! He said, hey, we're heading for a depression. He said okay, let call it a banana...

(Laughter of group)

NF: Do this, you can it a diversity in the workplace, multi-culturalism, but, see, make your central issue...see it doesn't make any difference. A word is just a tool. I doesn't mean anything unless you make it mean something. But what you're gonna get rid of is deceit. Now if there is no deceit at Goddard. If everybody always tell you the truth about everything. About your job description and everything else, you got no problem here. And really I don't need to be here. I figured there might be a problem, because I figured that the problem is worldwide. Speaking about racism, and the chief weapon of a racist is deceit. If there is no deceit...if theres nobody walking around here fooling anybody about anything...everybody always tells everybody the truth about everything. Then you got no problem at Goddard. But see, the key is, that's where the racists, the racism come in. You see ...if I worked at Goddard, and a white person told me anything, deliberately that's not true, and I went back to that person, I would say, this persons name is John, I'd say, what you told me the other day, its not true. I think you did it deliberately, that gives me probable cause as a victim of racism, to believe that you may be a racist, and now you are on that list. That's the way its supposed to work. This is what I do. In other words you get a label. Theres a price to be paid for being a racist. And this is how you do it. Now, who can you...I said a RACIST SUSPECT. I suspect you may be a racist...you didn't call that person a racist. That's very important. Why is it that a black person can't walk around here at Goddard Space Center and call a person a racist? Talking about practical stuff. Theres nobody to prove it by. That's what this means. If I called you a racist right now, you'd say...Aw, you called me a racist, Okay...you want to play that game, prove it! Like Jack Palance, standing there in Shane. Talking to Tory. Called me a low down lying yankee, you prove it. Okay. I other words, that's where the power thing comes from. Because that's what that means. I know, because at one time I slipped up and called somebody that. I said, you're a racist. And he didn't use the words, prove it, as such, he just more or less smiled and just said you just want to do some name calling, now who you gonna run down the hall and tell? Where's your muscle boy! Who you gonna tell, huh! Come on, you're a quick thinker. Who you gonna tell, you said that I'm a racist. Okay. I'm willing to go with that, but, you've gotta prove it, and if you don't prove it I'm gonna burn you! That's why I say, just like what the detectives say when they arrest someone. They say, I have a robbery suspect. So you say, hes a racist suspect. Suspected by who? By me. Based on what? He didn't tell me the truth, she didn't tell me the truth. That's all, that's the way its done. I call it codification. The racists have a code that they follow, everyday. The victims of racism do not have a code. Which is why they jump up and say and do anything, they usually jump up and get mad. I've worked with black people who told me that I was crazy. And then the next thing you know, six months later, they're running down the hall. Talking about how mad they are, all emotion. No thought. I said, you waited to late to get mad. I said, I was the mad person when you were talking to me. Say, now they fired you and you're mad. Cause you went on and went to sleep, thinking that everything is gonna run on automatic. I don't work like that, cause what you said awhile ago is correct, its about power. To white people its all about power because in schools right now even when a black child is sitting next to a white child two things are happening. The white child is being taught how to be a white supremacist, believe it or not. This is why a lot of people don't want any kind of strange curricula coming up in the school systems now. Wherever you find the school classroom full of black people anywhere nobody wants to around these people. Why because their ain't nothing enough events going on. Why, because the curricula does not fit them. So when you have a white person sitting next to a black person in the same classroom...under the system of white supremacy two things are going on. The white person is being taught how to practice white supremacy and the black is being taught how to be a victim. This is why at about five grades, that's when, people have told me it happens about the fifth grade, that's when the black students starts backing away. Starts disrupting the class. Starts acting crazy! And its not by magic.

JB: Is that because of American History that is taught...that is responsible?

NF: Its not American History that's being taught. Its white supremacy that's being taught. Right from when I crack my book and I look and see the subliminal message that you we're talking about. Little by little I begin to say... what!...am I in the right place? Everything that they're teaching refers to the success and what not of somebody else! About the fifth grade I'm just as crazy as I can be if I sit there and listen to that! And the teacher says, hey, you are going to sit here and listen to this or I am not gonna give you a grade that's gonna prepare you for life. He ain't prepared for life anyway, he's prepared for death. On the streets of Washington, Memphis, Chicago, L.A., ...

JB: Yes, but this has to do with whats being asked when they're (unintelligible) or whatever is being taught to be considered as registered to vote for the next (unintelligible).

NF: Yes, that is true. And that's the tragedy of it all, under the second area of activity...

JSB: So what about quote unquote...

NF: This is why we're having this talk in here now. To undo some of the damage that was done to people like who? Fuller! See I'm a damaged person. You can tell by the way I rattle off here. You're looking at damaged goods. I said I was a monstrosity...weird. Yes ma'am.

AG: I don't disagree with a lot of what you said, but, I have one belief, and that's that white supremacy may exist but personally people have to be able to take advantage and do things on their own and take some ownership to their own situations. Not saying that every situation a person is in they can totally get themselves out of or whatever, but, an example of this education thing in the fifth or sixth grade...if white supremacy exists and if white supremacists are teaching the students then 'A' you as a parent, in your own household...why aren't you doing something different to make sure that you're children are getting the education that you want them to have.

NF: Excellent question.

AG: I mean if you...

NF: I gonna answer the question...

AG: You've also got black folks you know, and that's the other thing I wanted to bring up is that you talked about deceit, as far as, what white people can do to blacks. You know, theres not just a black, white thing here, alright. And then... I think you have more deceit internal to the blacks here at Goddard, than you do from whites and just based on your definition, we can't considered racist, but, some of them act just as racist, if not moreso than the white population they (unintelligible) around, towards each other.

NF: Okay, hold that point, hold that point. That's not racism...that is the reaction to racism. See in other words, I just got through...lets walk through it...when I'm in that classroom, that's where it really starts. It starts before then, but, you really get a solid dose of it right in a class, right here in Maryland, anyplace. You get it, because its tradition. What is being taught is white supremacy. A lot of people don't realize that. How to be supreme as a white person, but, how to do...just be space out if you're black. You know...there no agenda for you at all...wait a minute, this is what is being taught...now...I bring that everywhere I go. Including thirty years later into the workplace, so I walk in, first of all, looking at a black person saying, I am nothing, because I'm black. I don't tell people that, but, that's really what I think cause that's what I've been taught all my life. And all these people that look like me are nothing because they're black. So therefore, its called self hate. Which is exactly what a deceiver who is really a master at it, will teach a person. Whether the person is black or white, if I really want to control that person, under all circumstances, the first thing that I do is teach that person to hate him or her self. To hate his or her mother. To hate anything...go look in the mirror boy, stand there look at it, what do you see...what you see is a monster or a monstrosity. Now I'm gonna bombard you systematically with what you see, so that when you turn away from that mirror and you walk through this world if you see anything like what you saw in that mirror, then that's something that you kick, that's something that you kill, that's something that you call a name.

AG: But, that power can't be given if you don't allow it. And I don't allow it. I don't accept it. And so I'd like for you to address this group, and I'm not even a member of this group, but I'd like for you to address this group on ways that they can constructively change things here. I mean, I think you have to be of the mind set where you're gonna accept that superior being, you know, mentality...and I don't accept it, I don't care what color you are.

NF: Okay. Okay, I'll, I'm gonna try to answer the question and then I'll move to you. I think that's what I'm doing.

AG: You've given one tool, you've given one tool. You've said that they should try not to allow deceit. But is there more than one, I mean based on their nine areas ...

NF: Oh, oh, definitely, definitely, definitely...uh, what do you want to pick? You want to pick sex? Pick anything.

AG: I'm just asking you to inform us, that's all.

Group: Labor, labor.

NF: Labor, well I talked about labor, we're working now, and I said the chief thing here is deceit. That's what you would knock out in the workplace more than anything and harp on it, all the time. I mean, everybody white or black who believes in Justice...that word is on the board...should say that hey at Goddard Space center, its one thing that are never going to get...and that's a lie from anybody. Oh yeah, now that's a tall order right there, I mean that'll keep you busy. You're never gonna get a lie from anybody. When you ask a question you are gonna get the truth.

JSB: Total Quality.

NF: Total Quality Management, to use a cliche term that I've heard is being passed around here. If you get that everything else falls into place because I'm saying this is a handle that causes all the rest of this. You don't have to have any pride in being black or anything else, once you get this, once you can knock that off the board so that nobody lies to you about nothing. If you need some training and what not, you are told this, and you are also told how you are going to get it...and when you are going through the process getting the training people come to you and say, is there anything that I can do help. Cause that's Justice, helping the person that needs help the most. Some people call it Affirmative Action. All actions are affirmative, or they wouldn't be actions. So you've got two kinds of actions going on this planet when it comes to race. Affirmative action in support of white supremacy and affirmative action against it. Only thing about it you don't have no affirmative action against it. That's what we're supposed to be doing in this room.

JSB: What about the successful black people.

NF: No such thing as a successful black person under the system of white supremacy, that another distortion. Successful in what? If I'm a victim of racism, a person, I was born from my mother with the color that I have and you have presidents who will stand up and say we need a colorblind society? For what! How come I can look at that wall or look at gold and green and call it gold and green, how come a person can't look at me and say he's black or he's whatever, without getting bent out of shape. And so you say the solution to it is to be color blind. And everybody just sits there and nods.

(Laughter of the group)

NF: And you say, what! I lost a job once cause I was color blind...they told me... I went in there and looked in that little gadget, the guy said, you're color blind, you cannot work for the Chicago transit authority. I said, what!? Said yeah, sorry about that, but, you scrambled your colors. Yet, the president said that's what I should be, I mean are we kidding here, what are we talking about.

NF: You started to say something, then I'll get back to this deceit.

BR: I thought I had brought it, it was when the uh, it was a, african american advisory committee had done a report by Sharon Bland and it was talking about perceptions here at Goddard and one of the things that was investigated was that African Americans aren't incapable, you know...that was the perception. And when you start looking at it the truth in a situation, these things get perpetuated and when you try to change them, for example as a black person you run into this deceit within yourself. Now all of us can sit here and play we don't think its true, but, you know, you go...we've been taught...you go out and you get a doctor, you sit up there and you see a black male and you see whether they see some seriously between a white doctor, or a white accountant or whatever, and you have a real problem with the government, which one are you going to go to. Now you know we've all been inundated with that throughout our lives. You know, I got me a good white lawyer...you see what I mean? And we've been taught that. Now maybe it hurts people to say that, and act like it doesn't exist, but, it's true...and so you have to address these things at the elemental point you know. We've been given slave mentality, we still have it. And um, since we can't get along with each other when we're in a group nothing functionally happens, the subjects go all off...the emotions come all out and nothing constructive gets done. The issue becomes, if this isn't the case, why do we meeting as black people? Why are people going around meeting because of the color of their skin? You know, there are people who work on propulsion systems of the shuttle, that makes sense...but, why are people who have a certain color of skin meeting together to talk about any issue? It really doesn't make sense. So you have to address the issue of what, why these people feel they have to, why these people have been subject to meeting.

NF: And I want to interject something that the lady is talking about, you know...what can you do? Kick out the multi-culturalism. I'm saying it, that is a no-no. You don't need that. It should be one culture and that's the culture of what...the one thing that you need the most. You don't need but one culture! No where on this planet. Its a culture called Justice.

JSB: So, I've got a question.

NF: Stop mistreating people and helping the person that needs help the most. That's the only kinda culture you need. All this stuff about what kinda beads you're gonna wear is play acting. That has nothing to do with nothing! A person has some beads, wear em! I mean don't go around having a meeting about it!

BG: I don't agree with that, because if white supremacy exists. White supremacy exists based upon the european says you're supposed to wear a tie if you come to work. Or what happens if we've got someone from africa who is not familiar with wearing ties and they wear their african garb? That should be allowed too. You have to balance your different cultures.

NF: Now wait, wai, wai, wai wait a minute.

BG: Like you said, balance between people.

NF: Now what did I say...

BG: If we're gonna get away completely...

NF: Now, no, no, no, hold on, hold on...What is balance between people? Guaranteeing that nobody is mistreated, that's number one, guaranteeing the person that needs help the most gets the most help. You walk in, you don't have a tie, like you're not wearing now, okay. And I say you should have a tie on to work here. Then a question is raised, is this just? And if it isn't lets examine it, Why do I have to have one...in order to eat. Alright, because this, does this, that and the other. Then that's when you get into the negotiation stage just like you do in a labor union. Basically no difference...you say, wait a minute, is this tie essential and if so why. Somebody will say, because we lose customers if we don't wear a tie. Oh, that's the reason! Why do I lose customers if I don't wear a tie? Alright, so then you just change whatever needs changing, and you'll be on the forefront of that. Already there are some people talking about what you wear at the office. I'll tell you that what you wear at the office is a lot different than what you used to wear at the office. You used to have to come with a shirt and tie on, aright, before the 1950's. But see culture is only what what you do, that's all.

JSB: Mr. Fuller, I have a question.

NF: Okay.

JSB: This book is the diversity management plan that's been put out by uh, the space center, Goddard Space Center, and in it, as you can see on the back it has a description of a multi-cultural advisory team. How...you just said you have to kick out multi-culturalism...but, multi-culturalism is the basis of that apparently.

NF: That's what I'm saying...

JSB: Well...how do you, how do you do that without being subversive.

NF: No, what you are subverting is this! (point to the term white supremacy) This is a subversive activity, the greatest one in the world. What does it subvert? It subverts this (points deceit) and it uses this to do it (points to the term truth). J Edgar Hoover once wrote a book once saying Masters of Deceit. And he described the masters of deceit as communists. Now, there was a problem there because nobody ever got around to explaining what communism was. See words again. The reason I say this, they didn't get around to explaining it cause I was an information NCO, a sergeant at Fort Seal Oklahoma in 1951. I was assigned to talk about Yugoslavian communism. I talked about it six months, every tuesday, to a large group of soldiers who were gonna go to the front, where I had already been, in Korea. It was only about my third week I began to understand that I didn't know what the heck I was talking about. Now, this is not without precedence. Mr. McNamara was on TV last night on C-Span and he said... now these are people that are making decisions for millions of people...he said Vietnam was a mistake, sorry about that folks, I don't care how many people got clobbered, how many bombs was dropped, how many cousins and uncles that you lost over there, it was a mistake and I made it...now eat it! See I'm talking about truth. See just because somebody is wearing a suit and tie, standing behind a big polished desk, doesn't nec...or on a balcony...doesn't necessarily mean that they know everything. Sometimes its the little person standing back there in the rear ranks saying, hey, I don't believe that! ... that knows more than everybody standing there who's supposed to know everything. Sometimes that the case. Now that recent thing, last night, C-Span, Mr. McNamara...a lot of people are very upset, one lady called in from somewhere crying, Tracy California, and said don't tell me that, see. I lost relatives over there. Don't tell me that now! See, I'm telling you lady because its true. What did uh Jack Nicholas say in A Few Good Men, "you can't handle the truth!"...a lot of us can't. When it comes to everything. It hurts. A lot of truth about myself that hurts. Sometimes I'll tell it and then duck. Crawl under the table. Can't stand it about myself. But that's where you've got to start.

MB: Mr. Fuller, I don't want to cut you off..

NF: Okay.
MB: But I need you to take the next five minutes and wrap up cause...I need to meet with the diversity group.

NF: Okay, alright, you start with... I'm gonna take the next five minutes and wrap up. The mission, see like this book...has a...every book that's printed supposed to have a mission, I don't care if its a detective novel. Supposed to have an objective. A love story...its supposed to have an objective. What is the objective of this book? What is the person writing? What is they trying to tell me? What kind of instructions am I getting? Same way with this, ultimately, if you're talking about people, you're talking about this (points to the term Justice). A word that I keep hearing kicked around and you too. But you can't have Justice without truth. And as long as you got deceit, you not gonna get no truth. And you gonna have violence everywhere. I gotta get in my car and go back to the den of violence right now. About three weeks ago some of you, particularly the white people in here probably never hear gunfire. I hear it all the time. I've got a bullet hole in my apartment window right now, in my wall, right now. Nine millimeter. Somebody fired at random. Talking about a war zone? You don't have to go to Bosnia or Rwanda, Haiti, you can go to some parts of Washington and take up residence you'll find out what war is. Uh, and that, that's the point that I'm making. The mission, see, this is a mission, Diversity Management Plan. I haven't read it... I was just hand this a just minute ago. I don't know what all this says, as I look thought it I see absence of bias and discrimination. Everybody discriminates, everybody is biased, so what are we talking about? We're talking about this really (points to the term white supremacy). See I'm talking about words, be pure with the words. Purification of words. You say what, wrap it up Fuller... I 'm wrapping it up. Make the words pure, when you talk to people, and they throw buckets of words at you, you say, wait a minute, hold it! Lets go back to the first word that you said, and lets walk though it, word for word, don't even skip over 'and', that's supposed to be a conjunction. That's included, I'm gonna look over every word that you said, if you say 'diversity', diverting from what, to what, in order to accomplish what? Lets talk about that. Lets break it down, scientifically. Not just throw a word out there. Well, lets have diversity in the workplace. In order to do what? Its got to be to produce something that you don't have! If you've already got it why are you bringing something into the workplace that you already have. That you don't really need? When there are things that you do need? Now, what you don't need is deceit. Now I said at the beginning of the meeting, if there is no deceit at Goddard, if nobody ever lies to anybody about anything, everybody always goes around and tells this great big sweet truth, about promotions, about potentials, about whos gonna get hired, about when the RIF is coming down, about what the assignment is gonna be, about what the workload is gonna be and who is gonna absorb what work load. About 'inchin' and 'stackin', two other words that I made up. You know what 'inchin' is? Inchin is when somebody comes and bring in a good ole friend of theirs and they decide that that friend is gonna get your job. Inchin is...I call it inchin cause it means taking one sheet at a time out of your in basket and moving it over here to this other desk down the hall. Little by little, an auditor comes around and looks at what you have in your in basket and the auditor says..oh, what do you do? Well, I do..you know, well I was doing, well uh, well uh, well I. No! You don't do anything here, so you are out of here! That's inchin. Stackin is the other process. When someone is gonna see to it that you get a terrible efficiency report. I made these terms up, but, you can use them. The reason you can use them is because when you use them then the person who doesn't know what you're talking about has to ask you. That's when you're controlling the language. Now this is compensatory language, meaning making up for whats missing. The reason I came up with it is because I didn't have any way of explaining what was going on. So I call it inchin and stackin. Stackin is when a person comes and says we detailed so and so out of here therefore you handle this for the next week, just for a week. And two weeks go by, so and so ain't came back. So you inquire around and so and so in now somewhere at another installation, another agency. Okay, I'm conscientious, I'll do my work. Continue to do it, then here comes another stack of work...that's why I call it stackin. Just do this temporarily, no problem, we're all family here. Take care of it, okay. So you're working on it, sooner or later you become what, inefficient. Because now you're doing three people's work where you started out doing one.

MR: See, I thought you were gonna say the auditors are gonna come by and give you a promotion.

(Laughter of the group)
NF: No, no, no, no...no, no, that's not the way it works.

MR: I, I was sure you were gonna say that.

NF: Theoretically that's the way it works. People say, you're an unsung hero, no, someone forgot that you are three peoples work cause this has been on for four years now. Alright, it happened little by little. See. It doesn't happen all at once. See, if they just kinda drop a big bomb on your desk you'd say hey, wai, wait a minute, whoa, wha whats this? This is not my job, this is in my job description, what, wai, whoa, I wanna talk to somebody...alright. But if they do it just a little bit at a time you're outta there. Now, you might say that this is non-sense. This is real, because I have received reports from people who say that this is exactly what happened to them. And theres no trace, theres no paper trail, theres no nothing. Another thing, try to get everything in writing...once somebody escalates your job description and get their signature on it. And also say about how you're gonna do it. Not just escalate the job description. How am I going to do it? That's very important! Sometimes people just drop things in front of you and walk off. They don't tell you how. Hey, wait a minute, don't walk away from here without telling me systematically how I'm going to do this step by step by step, by painful step. Where am I gonna get the time to do it? See, you got a time factor here. Because somebody is gonna run in there and say this should have been done. You mentioned labor, I'm talking about the workforce...

MR: Yeah, wai, wai, wai...lets look at that...I have a real problem when you say something like that. I mean...you very quickly get to the point that you sit there and say that you've got to be willing...

NF: Got to what?

MR: You've got to be willing to take into account...I understand what you're saying, as soon as you get to the position, in my view, where you've got to question everything...you've got to sit there and say, hey, uh, yeah, you gave me that, tell me exactly how to do that...oh that's not enough, tell me a little bit more about how to do that, tell me a bit little more about how to do that. You know, I think that tells me that you've got someone that can't do the job.

NF: True, true, true.

MR: I think theres a limited help that has to be given to everybody, but, if you sit there and think that everybody is here that you get all of the help that you need to have, I think you are in,...I, I, think you are in for a great disillusionment. I, I, ...

JD: But you know, our kids, you know, are penalized every day in the schools. He gotta go with you to help him. You penalize them by giving them an 'F'.

NF: Uh, sir, I just want to address this, I wanta address this. In the context of what we're talking about see, this is not, these things don't happen in a vacuum. There is such a thing as real as the old boy network. Okay. Sometimes white people complain about it, alright...if they're not in the loop. Its very easy for a black person not to be in the loop. Black person is always in the noose. Okay. So, it just comes down to who drinks beer with who, whom and when and where sometimes, okay, sometimes its that way. Many times its that way, alright. Now, that's what I mean by the deceit. I'm saying as a white person, if you believe in Justice, you say, I'm not gonna be a part of no network that keeps anybody out as far as information is concerned that's gonna be helpful. There are white people, presumably, in this room, that's that formula, that's the formula that you take out of this room with you. I'm not gonna lie to anybody. I'm not gonna lie for you, old boy, old buddy, or nobody else...I drink beer with ya, I go fishin with ya, but I'm not going down there and tell them black people this lie that you want me to tell them.

KH: That might not be in this generation.

NF: That's what I'm talking about being a pioneer. Cause if you see that, and you said something a while ago, I think you're the one that spoke up when everybody else fell silent...see, and that's what pioneering is all about. So it comes down to, since you say its gonna take generations, it comes down to your generation and it starts with you.

KH: I'm doing it.

NF: You're doing it? I believe that cause you're here.

HM: I don't believe that we should see multi-culturalism as being the bible because if you look at things historically at first at one time um, the response of white supremacy was the segregation, then the next year it was affirmative action, another year its multi-culturalism and its just...depending on what period of time you're looking at, and depending on what the circumstances are. The words can change, techniques change but the problems remain the same, but, nobody ever deals with the fundamental problem. Nobody addresses the question of white supremacy and how that committee or that process is gonna address white supremacy. Its a fundamental question. You know, and again the problem of desegregation, the question of affirmative action, the question of multi-culturalism, all the same, same uh, issues of deceit run through those processes. And that's something that Africans don't have any clarity about and europeans definitely don't have any clarity about. So if...saying what he said is correct. The problem is Africans are confused in that, they, um, they, follow through the process blindly. Without even fully understanding the concept. And that's important to reveal that in your book, and in your materials.

NF: This gentleman said it right from the beginning. You weren't in here. He said give me something else other than the term, white supremacy. That's the jugular vein. I ain't turning loose to it. I know that that's the term. You go on television... and I have told people to do that...like the man behind the bell curve and all like that... I say go on television and use the term white supremacy, he's gonna freeze, cause he knows that's where the nerve center is. Dr. Francis Welsing did that. Dr. Charles Murray is not difficult to debate. He's got a no-win situation if you use the correct words. That is the correct term to describe actual situation. This does exist, whether we like it or not. It came into being long long before anybody in this room was born. So you're born into this system. Whether you're white or non-white. Its just, you have to make up your mind, what are you going to do about it? But, you have to make that the target and the way you make it the target is not just going around calling people white supremacists, that won't work, you'll just make them mad. You say don't deceive me. That is more frightening to a person that believes in this (points to white supremacy) than anything else. If I'm a card shark and everybody in town begins to find out that I'm a card shark, I'm out of business! If they say hey, you can't trust Fuller. Everytime he sits down he's got cards all under the table. This is his thing! Deal with him if you have to, but, always put it in mind that he is going to try to beat you, he's going to try to trick you, he's gonna try to deceive you, he's gonna try to commit indirect violence against you.

MB: We'd like to thank you for coming out and addressing the group today. Um, I'd like for all the members of the 220 workforce diversity group to stay behind for a few minutes.

NF: Thank you for coming and I hope I didn't cause any dissention and misunderstanding like you have so well. presented.

We we're talking about something that's been a long running show, and it should run out the end of next fifteen minutes that's the way I look at it. I don't believe in that long drawn out struggle. I don't even like that word. Struggle. Struggle to do this, struggle to do that, just do it! Get it done like fifteen minutes ago! And you have to use the correct words. People sometimes ask me. Fuller how do you intend to move this big rock? You move it with words cause that's how it was put together. See, but you've got to be able to step forward and use the correct words. Like going into an operating room. You have to pick up...or a plumbing shop...you gotta pick up the correct tool, otherwise you're just gonna be messing around, making a lot of noise and doing nothing.

JB: (Unintelligible)

NF: Yes, and the way you do that is emphasize, look at the words! I tried to do that right here in this room. Everytime somebody would say something I'd say wait a minute, hold off, lets look at the word that you used. We've been given buckets of words that go no where. Its like being given a map and you're in Pennsylvania, you're given a map of Idaho. That's the kinda deal that we've been handed. So you've gotta be able to tell the difference between Idaho and Pennsylvania. Otherwise, you gonna be running all over the place. You gonna be making tracks alright, you're gonna think you're making progress, but, you're going nowhere. Cause you're not in the state that you thought you were in. Once you start explaining the words that you use, right out here at the space center, if you just listen to the words that people use. What are we looking at, what do you mean by that? And then go back, go dumb. The computer goes blank. Wait a minute, put that one word up there...you said thirty words...put one word up there, and then put the other one behind it. Lets deal with just one word at a time so I know what you're doing. I'll bet you right here that that is not being done, because everywhere I've ever been its not being done. We don't pay attention to the words! I just looked at that book, diversity and what not, it looks like to me that they're missing the boat on that. A whole lotta words in there, I don't think they say anything. Cause I haven't seen the key words. White supremacy, deception; they don't say nothing about that in there. See these are key words, deception. And you'll see the word Justice, cause you see that everywhere, but, nobody ever explains it. Somebody on the Larry King show, what was his name, Jerry Spence, the lawyer team with O.J.. He said that Justice doesn't have a definition. I said, you mean to tell me we're gonna go all these years and find out that you're using a word that does not have a definition? I wrote it down, when he said it, he was on television, CNN, Jerry Spence. He says Justice doesn't have a definition. But there are people who went to Vietnam and everyplace else...tell the sergeant I'm fighting for Justice. Fighting for something you don't even know what it is? That's a terrible thing to find out in 1995. You've got a Justice department...people making money sitting up running machines and computers all day long. Saying we're trying to achieve Justice. What is that? Hey, it doesn't have a definition. You don't know it... when you see it. Its everywhere... its nowhere. It doesn't exist. You can't define it. You can't feel it. This is what you're being told by at least one person. Now just because Jerry Spence said it doesn't make it true. But I'm saying words are important. People get hired and fired based on words. I I made out a...let me leave here, cause you-all have to talk, I just want to say this. I made out a security clearance once, and it said, name three people that know you very well, and I started writing. And then I stopped and thought, wait a minute, words. First of all who can I testify under oath knows me very well and how deep is a well? What does that mean? That's a trick question. Designed anyway you go, to trap you. So I put down the answer, none. That's a truthful answer. Investigators came around and the investigators reinvestigated me, why did you put that down? You don't know three people who know you very well, but, I was ready, I said no, I cannot testify in a court of law who knows me very well cause first of all I don't know myself very well. So that means that somebody may know me very well, but, I don't know who it is. And then I asked a question, I said, do you know me very well, and if you know me that well why are you asking these questions. -End of Session-

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