John Bilal: What is Communitas?

Dr. Avayzian: Communitas was established in 1989 - Northhampton, Massachusetts its a multi- racial-ethnic group of 6, provides anti-racism education, consultation, and teaching works with houses of worship, colleges, agencies, universities, community-based organizations helps people analyze 3 levels of racism: personal, cultural, organizational institutional)most concerned with institutional nature of racism in contemporary society and helps people with a diagnosis and action plan to change policy and procedures that keeps the insidious nature of racism alive and well in America in this decade.

John Bilal: Would you like to make an opening comment Mr. Fuller?

Neely Fuller: Yes, . . .a concept that is expressed in the code book is that racism functionally comes in one form, and that form is called loosely, white supremacy. And there are no other functional forms and all other actions on the part of the victims of racism, to the existence of white supremacy, is a reaction to that and the textbook workbook is designed to, first of all, detect what racism is, and how it works. It's to help the individual person to do that, and how to respond to it in 9 areas of activity: economics, education, entertainment, labor, law , politics, religion, sex, and war. But is starts from the basic premise that racism is white supremacy; white supremacy is racism, and that any other approach is designed to confuse.

John Bilal: Dr. Avayzian, have you any literature or have you written any books at all on the topic of racism?

Avayzian: I've written considerably in journal articles and educational materials, and I am working on turning my doctorate dissertation into a book, but I don't have a book out, I only have articles and educational materials. And I would agree with what has been said that racism is white supremacy and they are synonymous terms. I would agree with that. When we do work on racism, we define racism as a system of advantage based on race. And the system of advantage is political, social, economic, legal, all these systems that were just mentioned, and it is the systematic advantaging of European Americans, or whites in a society that gives the constant unearned benefit, privilege, award, advantage to white people in every system in America so it's synonymous with white supremacy. we tackle it from the approach of personal, cultural, institutional racism because we think white supremacy manifests itself in 3 distinct ways, that in fact, the problem is white supremacy or racism , that it has a daily manifestation in personal interaction, personal dyads, in cultural and messages like were just mentioned with the media, entertainment, with the Oscars coming up, that there is a cultural message of white supremacy everyday in our society and further institutionalized in organizations, and institutions through policies and practices that permeate all the major institutions in this nation. So, I would agree with you that white supremacy and racism are synonymous and identical terms and I think the idea of how to respond in the nine specific areas that you mentioned are very helpful, because I think what we need to look at is, what is this insidious pervasive problem and what response can both people of color who are targeted by this social disease, what can the response be there, and what can be the response for, what we call, white activists or white allies or white advocates who are willing and able to stand up to racism and make changes in society on the cultural and the institutional level.

Fuller: I have a question, then. Are you classified as white?

Dr. Avayzian: Yes, I am. I am a 44 year old European American woman.

Neely Fuller: Are sometimes mistaken for non-white?

Dr. Avayzian: No, I am clearly white although I am Armenian American. And that has a whole history of the genocide and I am in this country clearly white when I pass through the world or apply for jobs, or meet people or go to hotel counters. I look white. People mistake me for Jewish or Italian.

Neely Fuller: No one ever mistakes you for being non-white?

Dr. Avayzian: What I am most often confused about is people don't tend to say to me oh you are Armenian, they don't tend to say that, but people ask me often if I'm Jewish or if I'm Italian.

Neely Fuller: Do you have a reason for, in your own mind , why people would perceive you as being as such and what that would mean?

Dr. Avayzian: I know that I cannot imagine being targeted by racism in America. This is not something that is in my experience at all. what I try and do in my work, there are people of color on our team. I am the director and I am white, but there are people of color on our team. What I try to do in my work is I try and work with and speak to predominantly other white people. And the people of color on our team we work in bi-racial pairs, but when I am presenting or speaking or doing a consultation, I ask other white people to join me in the struggle and the white ally or a white activist to speak out to and stand up to racism in myriad of ways that are available to white people to be allies in the struggle for justice. So I never pretend to and never violate a trust of speaking for people of color. that is not something I do. I am not of color. I would not know that experience. And I do know what its to receive unearned advantage and privilege everyday. So I can speak to white men and white women about what it means to be on the receiving end of unearned advantage and invisible privilege. And I speak about that all the time. I understand that just as men, cannot have the experience of being women and knowing what its like to be targeted each day as a woman. Men can still be allies to woman in the struggle for equity and justice to dismantle sexism by looking at their own issues and their own unearned advantage and power and that I know that in the struggle for equity for women we need men to be allies with us at speaking to other men that's speaking out for justice. The same parallel goes for me as a white person. I never speak for people targeted by racism. That as a person dominant in that form of ism, I speak as a white person to other white people and call them to be accountable and ask whites to look hard at the systems of advantage available to whites everyday in our society. And its been available to every white person in this country since the day they were born.

John Bilal: Do you have any specific recommendations for victims of racism as to how to lessen their victimization?

Dr. Avayzian: What we do in our agency is we talk to people who are targeted by racism about the process of empowerment that we believe is a multi-stage or multi-step process, which actually is a extended part of a workshop that we do with people. We talk to white people about the stages they need to go to, to be strong allies to people of color and we talk to people who are victimized or targeted by racism about coming to a strong sense of who they are in the world despite the fact they are targeted routinely, constantly, and continually by a brutal form of oppression (racism). So we talk about the stages of empowerment and what it means to attain or reach a place of personal power and what it also means to maintain that despite the constant barrage of negativity that is reamed down upon people who are victimized by racism. So we do a lot of thinking about strength thru community and individual touching of one's own place of empowerment and then we talk a lot about strategies for maintaining that sense of power and how much people who are victimized by racism can actually get away with or risk being the fully powerful people they are in the world. Where they find nurture and sustenance. What risks are safe to make. We do a lot with people who are targeted by racism and each setting the strategies vary because we do not have one canned or prepared workshop or presentation that goes with us to all the cities around the country. We do a lot of listening and we do a lot of dialogue.

Neely Fuller: In your research and in your interactions, that is attended to your studies, what do you perceive or what has been reported to you or expressed to you either directly or indirectly is the greatest fear, the greatest fear (underlined) that white people seem to have when it comes to this business of interactions between black people and white people?

Dr. Avayzian: I would say that the media has done a very effective job at instilling in white people's head a fear, particularly of men of color. So there is sometimes a visceral or physical fear that white people have because the media has been so successful in portraying men of color as dangerous and criminal and predators and that has been such thorough message that we have been inaccurately, inappropriately, incorrectly fed. So white people often have a fear of particular of men of color. I think on another layer, we have become such a profoundly segregated, frightened and barricaded society that many white do not have close interactions with people of color. And one fear that I hear from whites all the time is that they are afraid of their interactions with people of color because they are very afraid they will make a mistake, look foolish, be humiliated. Um, I think they are actually afraid that their racism will show and that they won't be able to keep it in check or monitor it sufficiently. Um, and so people of color often make white people inadvertently very self conscious because white people don't know how to behave appropriately in their presence and its because they have had so little interaction with folks of color, that we are still such a segregated and separated society. So I think that what we see in whites is a reflection of the barrage of media messages and also a reflection of the limited experience in multi cultural, multi-racial groups at the workplace, in the neighborhood, at a house of worship, in a community that there are so few interactions that many white people have on a regular and close basis with people of color that they feel that they are in foreign territory.

Neely Fuller: I have another question that is associated with that. If it is true that it was "media generated, what would you say accounts for the aversion to non-white males (to black males) by white people in general when there was no media coverage. I was underlining not just fears in general because there are quite a few fears but the basic fear, the greatest fear that has been given to you information-wise by white people when they start talking about interactions with black people. Is there a fear that's greater than any other fear that you perceive or you've heard or have been reported to you. And what exactly is that fear?

Dr. Avayzian: I'm not sure I have a brilliant answer for you. I think that white people learned long ago to exploit colonize, and I think that the roots of racism have, I think fear has developed, but I think the real roots are the aggrandizement of power and greed. I think that the roots of racism are rooted in white people and European peoples' need for power and control and greed. And I think the fear that has grown out of that is the fear that because white people have developed this white supremacist attitude towards the world and approach to the world and have taken so much that was not theirs and colonized and exploited; I think there's a fear that maybe we will (white people) will receive what is due to us and there's a fear that the balance will shift and whites will no longer be a power in control and the brutal and inhuman things that white people have done throughout the centuries, throughout the millennia, will be visited upon us. That is not a well - practiced or well-thought-out response. In my work I am much more focused on the contemporary face of racism. I tend not to look back because in my workshops and in my consultations in my experience, especially white people less so people of color, but white people get very focused on the task of trying to prove their innocence. They didn't do that, they have no relatives that did that, they never owned slave, they were not part of the middle passage, And they work very hard to prove their innocence and I get caught in a very unhelpful spiral of reliving and recreating the past. So what I do is do a very thorough assessment of what we call neo-racism, which is racism of the ‘80s and the ‘90s. What's it look like today? What is all this history, all this pain, all this tragedy, all this exploitation, where has it brought us today, and how is it playing out in our communities, in our cities, in our churches, mosques, synagogues, in our places of worship. What does it look like today, and how can every white person and person of color be a change agent to look towards the millennia and into the new century with a sense that we can make a difference and we can actually tackle this social disease, and if not heal, make some further strides towards equity and justice.

Neely Fuller: Well, yes, I can see that um, you have answered the question partially, from your view. But what I was basically trying to arrive at is something based on my experience and observation and conclusions that I have made; 1) is that even when white people interact with non-white people particularly black people, what we call black people, in a constructive, harmonious "setting", there's still one basic fear that at some point or another comes out and that is the fear that white people will, through black people, have offspring that are not white, and that is a very terrifying, absolutely terrifying fear, particular among white grandmothers but that is unspoken except in very hush tones and it might be to get to the genesis of some of this problem if you can get white people to admit that and to admit it consistently and to admit it under all circumstances and then maybe, just maybe we can start getting some clarity in how we can proceed from that point. If that point is not made and that point is not made consistently and thoroughly and in every conceivable setting where black people and white people interact with each other, then we're going to have more confusion, more deception, and more of the same of what we've been getting, and that is a view of where I have sat and I have found that many white people will go into denial when that is brought up, except when they are forced to out of anger.

Dr. Avayzian: Well, my experience with that is that it is folks in the older generation that carry that fear and that it's people in the baby boom era and the younger generation that is_____________ fear. My sister is in a bi-racial marriage. And the community I live in has a very large bi-racial, matter-of-fact there's such a large bi-racial family system that there is an entire large group that meets for social events, potluck suppers, meetings and only people in bi-racial and mixed-family marriages and mixed families are invited. I think it's the older generation that carried exactly that, a fear that there would be a mixing of the races and it was a very deep fear. In my experience that has changed with the baby boomer generation and in fact in know bi-racial families is growing each year in the census figures that we follow in this office at a really exponential rate. I was just a reader for a book being published by the university of Mass. Press. Prior to publishing it they asked experts in the field to read and comment on the manuscript. And I just last week sent the manuscript and my comments back to the Univ. of Mass. Press, and the book of called "Check Other: Portraits of biracial and Multiracial families, and its a book about the growing number of mixed families and how there's a movement afoot to get your census form and check the "other " box, rather than white, Hispanic, black, Asian; to check other, because so many people are coming from mixed heritage families. So in my experience that isn't the number one fear for the baby boom generation, but it is a very profound fear for seniors in this country, that the idea that the races would mix.

Neely Fuller: I noticed you used the term and it's a cliché term, when people speak about race, they always, as a rule, they finish what they say, by saying "in this country", whereas the race problem is worldwide. Now, case-in-point, in Brazil they're talking about the very thing we're talking about; mixed people. its very odd, that as long you have had "mixed people" in Brazil, nobody wants to be black. Everybody wants to be classified as something other than black. Isn't this kind of odd and doesn't that kind of fly in the face of what you're saying about acceptability because I understand that the Portuguese over a long period said that it was okay , yet at very pronounce, everyday level, it is not okay. The people you see standing on the balcony in Brazil are always white. Or they can be classified as white and the people who are down in the slums are always black, or can be classified as black. Now that should be studied if you're going to follow that line of logic in what we call this area of the world in the northwestern hemisphere. That should be studied in fine detail to see where it eventually plays out, because what you'll have is the same thing with a new name.

Dr. Avayzian: Because I am not fully doing a full workshop or consultation, we obviously are on the telephone and we're not face to face and so I am not doing my usual guidelines and introductory comments, but in each interaction where I am actually making a presentation, a speech, or a workshop, I share with people the fact that my comments about racism are confined to this country. My doctoral dissertation work was simply about racism in the United States and although racism is a global problem, it's an international problem, it happens all around the world and it absolutely should be studied and it absolutely should be addressed. I have found that for me to be an expert in one area, I can only focus on this country, and what happens often in workshops is that white people want to talk about racism everywhere else except the Bronx, or LA, or Chicago, or North Hampton Massachusetts, or Hartford or Albany or Maine or anywhere else. They never want to talk about it in their backyard. They always want to talk about east Temore, or Bosnia, or someplace else where ethnic cleansing is happening failing to see the system of apartheid in our own country. So what I have done is I am focused on racism in the United States and I finish most sentences with "in this country" or "in this nation" to be very clear I'm not talking about Brazil, Argentina, Japan, because I have been unable to become an expert on the racism in Japan, the racism in Argentina, the racism in Brazil. What I have been able to do is to get a real handle on neo-racism, contemporary racism, and the history of racism in this country, and I focus on that. Everything you're saying I agree with and I actually think that having a global perspective is useful. The reason I don't teach or speak from that perspective is because in my experience it gives white people an "out" to talk about other nations, other people, other problems and not look at their family, their church, their synagogue, their street, and their place of work. So in my work I bring it home all the time, to how are white people complicit, how are white people polluting, and what can we do to change the face of the nation. It seems a big enough job for me to just focus on this country. So I don't disagree with anything you said I just wanted to clarify my perspective.

John Bilal: Dr. Avayzian, I would like to ask a question because of something you said earlier about "bi-racial couples". Do you believe that bi-racial couples is a solution to the system of racism or not?

Dr. Avayzian: I don't believe its a solution to the system of racism. I think if people, my sister has fallen in love with and connect with and have relationships with people across the racial divide, bravo, congratulations, wonderful, I think that's fine. I think that it is not the solution. I think white people have to wrestle very profoundly with the false notions of superiority that has been poured into our heads since children. And I think people of color have got to continue despite the risks and the pain to claim the power and the affirmation of who they are in the world and I think the struggle still lies ahead. I think bi-racial families is wonderful, I have one in my family, I think that's a wonderful thing, but I don't think that that is the answer. I think the answer is the struggle for equity which is a moral, ethical, political, and social struggle, and I think we're in the midst of it and I think we have been for decades.

John Bilal: Dr. Avayzian, if you could comment please on two things that have been in the news recently, I guess in the last year, the O.J. Simpson verdict and trial and perhaps Minister Farrakhan and the Million Man March. What are your thoughts on those two events and how they impact on the system of racism and the way that people interact on a close one-on-one basis. I'm sure since you've been training thru that period maybe you've seen some fallout, maybe you can give us some insight as to what your observations have been.

Dr. Avayzian: I wish now that I had sent you, I must not have sent you the article I wrote after the O.J. Simpson trial and the Million Man March. I did not send you an article called "Can We Talk?".

John Bilal: No, I didn't receive that.

Dr. Avayzian: Okay, I wish I'd sent an article. An African American woman who I work very closely with named Dr. Beverly Daniel-Tatum. She and I co-author things on occasion. We do a great deal of speaking, and training and teaching together. And she and I wrote an article after the Million Man March and the O.J.Simpson trial called ‘can we talk'. It's a co-authored article ‘can we talk'. And its about what we perceive together in our dialogue with each about how both the O.J. Simpson trial and the MMM brought into stark release in this country the tremendous divide and insulation that separates people of color and specifically African Americans and white in this country. That we are not becoming a more integrated society as a matter of fact we were more integrated in the ‘70s than we are in the ‘90s. And how barricaded, insulated, and separated the two races white and black are in this country despite the fact that W. E. B. Dubois told us ages ago that the issue for the century was the issue of the color line, and people have been saying, telling this nation for decades that forever that if we don't solve and get to the root of our racial divide that we will remain a fractured and sick society. But our understanding, one of our perceptions about the MMM and the O.J. Simpson verdict is that it brought into stark relief this tremendous separation where white people and people of color specifically African Americans are not speaking to each other and in dialogue with each other so that there could be this totally different reaction to the O.J. verdict with many African Americans feeling affirmed and cheering and congratulatory that O. J. was found not guilty and that white people just convinced he was guilty and ringing their hands and that the division between the two um races was uh was in in in stark relief um I think the MMM, and there's that we can come back and say about the O. J. Simpson trial, but I think the MMM was a really a very powerful visual image. For white people and people of color to see the strength, the power, the clarity, the beauty of a million African Americans men and others, I know there were some Latinos and others involved, in standing up for pride and dignity and self worth. Um and I think it made a lot of white people hushed. I think that Louis Farrakhan became less significant in white peoples minds than the fact that, and reports vary, but let's say, a million black men fathers and brothers and children and grandparents and men from all walks of life came out to join in a statement of solidarity and purpose and vision and dignity and that is really counter to what white Americans are fed each day by the media. So I think the um, but again it showed how separated and wary and cautious these two groups are of each other especially white people um of of a African Americans in our society. And um Beverly and I sat down and wrote an article which I would be very happy to share with you called "Can We Talk" about when will it come time, when will we be ready for white people and people of color to dialogue respectfully, um and talk to each other about painful, real, and authentic issues. Not just white social interactions in the church fellowship room in the street when one passes occasionally, but in real heart-to-heart mind-to-mind dialogue about our differences and their similarities and in the article we talk about how the O. J. Simpson trial and the MMM point to the need for white people to do a lot of listening and a lot of believing about what the life experiences and life circumstances are for people of color in this country. And when whites quiet down and listen and believe, the first step towards an honest authentic dialogue will have been made. Um.

Neely Fuller: I have a question.

Dr. Avayzian: That's a quick sketch.

Neely Fuller: I have a question.

Dr. Avayzian: Yes, please.

Neely Fuller: When you dialogue with other people and you say all the things to them that you are saying now, uh people are motivated by some type of profit motive of some type. Now that profit may take all kinds of forms. What do you tell a white person that they are going to get out of all this. All of this interaction with black people. What do you tell them that they are going come out of it with?

Dr. Avayzian: I tell white people they have the possibility of regaining and reclaiming their soul. That until white ...

Neely Fuller: That's a hard sale.

Dr. Avayzian: It's a real hard sale. And that's why that it is certain people don't or are not interested in hearing the message. I think that, I talk to people about combating racism, it's the right thing to do. Straight out. It's the right thing to do. It is what we are ethnically , morally, spiritually, psychologically, politically, and socially called to do. And that we have the possibility of reclaiming and regaining our souls, that until we are able to join hand in hand as equal partners with members of the human family, we are broken. And we have the possibility in our lives of being of mending the brokeness in the human family.

Neely Fuller: And that is what you say ?

Dr. Avayzian: I say it and I say to people it's hard and you will be ostracized in your community and you will receive hate mail and you will get yelled at on your phone machine and you will get all the things that I have gotten, and that it's the right thing to do.

Neely Fuller: And I have a question, another question attendant to that.
Once you say that, what does the average white person that you talk to say,

Dr. Avayzian: Well

Neely Fuller: About this business of giving up a lot of things that are near and dear to them including their entire value system in order to interact with black people, in order , "reclaim their souls".

Dr. Avayzian: By that time in the workshop, we are far, I mean, it's not the first thing say. It is well into the workshop and what we have already done prior to that is we have done an analysis of racism. So by the time they've gotten there, they've also dealt with the fact that they spent the first several days or hours or whatever it took telling me there is no racism. See that's the first hurdle. Reclaiming their souls is minor compared to the fact that (some laughter) so many white people tell you until they're blue in the face that there is no racism. So first we have the major mountain to climb to convince white people that racism is still a problem in 1996. Or in 1986 when I was doing this. They say, "uh we solved that with the civil rights movement. We solved that. You know, get with the program girl this isn't a problem anymore. So we've already climbed a few mountains by the time I get to the point of saying, "why do this, why be a white ally, why care about racism. Why care about a system of injustice where you receive the benefit. Why care. Well there are answers to that. And the answers are that I think embedded in each person is actually a desire to be a good person. And things are given up, but things are also gained. That justice, as the bible says, the universe bends towards justice. That justice is something that I think people have an innate desire to see it, to help create. And that it is the right thing to do and a lot of people cannot stand the contradiction. That they go to church every Sunday and talk a lot of good religious talk and then live in a divided, frightened, unequal world that they are complicit in and colluding with. And it actually brings a lot white people a great relief to figure out how they can be agents for change, and how they can minimize the contractions in their own life. Tell them that there are ways that they can really bring their deepest beliefs and their behaviors into congruent pattern.

John Bilal: Yes. I wanted to ask, um, Mr. Fuller, if you could maybe, I know you have certain concepts as to the basic um I guess thrust of racism being uh deception and violence. Can you maybe tie that in to what has been said so far and Dr. Avayzian, I'd like to know if uh, if you directly attack that in your discussion with uh people who practice racism.

Neely Fuller: Well, the basis in order to have a system of white supremacy, you have to use deception, and you have to use violence. Now deception is a form of violence if it's malicious in intent and malicious in result. If it has a destructive result, that's a form of violence, even though you didn't actually use direct violence which is physical. If you're trying to fool someone to their detriment, then that is form of violence. So that is a necessity if you're going to maintain a system of white supremacy. White supremacy is an artificial system. It's set up based on someone has got to be in charge of somebody else and it's going to be done in a royal fashion. It's basically just the old royal system put on a color basis, therefore you have more subjects within the royal enclave, and so that when you do that then you have to deceive people because you have a lot of subjects to watch and you can't watch ‘em all 24 hours a day, so you have to put them on automatic which means you have to control the way that they think and the way that they act even when you're not looking at them. And the only way you can do that is through deception. And when the deception fails, or runs into flaws, then you have to use direct violence and that is how the white supremacists operate world wide ever since the first person who thought of the idea. It was the most powerful social and material idea ever conceived. No religion has ever paralleled it. It swept completely over the entire earth in a very short period of time and it got a lot of things done in a very short period of time because when you can talk to people and you don't have to take ‘no' for an answer, you can get a lot of things done. And uh this is how the system basically works. But it has to be backed up by the bottom line. You have to be able to use tremendous and overwhelming violence in no unmistaken terms in order for it to work. Cause every now and then some of the people who are deceived become aware of what's going on and come to the conclusion that something is out of order. and then they become surly and then they become balky, and then they become rebellious. So they have to be "put back" in their place. And the fastest way to do that in the most unmistakable tried and sure way of doing that is with brute force.

John Bilal: Dr. Avayzian what would be your response to that.

Dr. Avayzian: Well, I agree. I agree. I think that that is the accurate analysis, I think it's uh a bold analysis, I think it's the right thing to say. When we do workshops we talk about um racism, again, we talk about racism, domestic, we talk about racism in this country. And Mr. Fuller was just talking about globally but I agree with everything he said. When we do our teaching we talk about racism as kept in place by two forces, and I think we're very much in agreement here. We use slightly different words but not much. One, is we say racism is kept in place by two forces. One is ideology. And that is part of the deception. The deception, the ideology, the belief system that one race is superior to another. That one can be exploited, that one , all the deception, the lies, we call them the lies we've all been taught, um so the ideology is one factor that keeps racism in place, the second is violence or the threat of violence. And we do analysis that has just been beautifully articulated. I mean, I agree completely that, he would say deception, I would say ideology. I think we're talking about the same things, and violence and the threat of violence. When violence has been used repeatedly, violence sometimes actually does not need to be used because the threat of violence is so great that it keeps people um in a passive and subservient um behavior, because the threat of violence, it it carries, you know the realities that the actually violence is just around the corner or waiting, you know, til sundown or whatever , but I agree completely. Because white supremacy is based on a lie, it has to be upheld or reinforced by deception and violence to keep the lie in place.

John Bilal: I'd like to maybe push the envelope here. Dr. Avayzian, if you can, can you maybe give us what you think, out of all of your experience in dealing with racism (white supremacy), the way that you see this entire, I guess in your sense you would talk about the way that the country is moving, people in the country are moving. What would you predict for the next ten years, so to speak, or out into the future as regards to this system of white supremacy, is it gonna to get stronger, is it gonna falter and fail, uh what do you see and then Mr. Fuller if you would follow that up with your analysis of the same thing.

Dr. Avayzian: I'll be very interested in hearing what Mr. Fuller has to say because I try and crystal-ball, look into the future all the time and get a sense from where we have been and where I think we are now to where we're headed, and I'm not going to be brilliant about this, so I'll be very interested in Mr. Fuller's reflections on this. My sense is that we are um experiencing a second wave of the civil rights movement. and that we are growing in intensity the um, the reaction to the outcry again, the people willing to combat racism is growing. I think we're experiencing a period of empowerment and definition and strength of people of color in this country despite the crushing and grinding nature of racism. And I think we actually had some good well intentioned white people who are waking up to the level of deception and lies that they have been fed and absorbed and I think we're seeing more white people wake up and become active, sometimes not always in the most effective ways, but wake up and become active and um a lot of people of color taking leadership, speaking out against racism, not colluding with the system anymore, not trying to a assimilate, not holding up integration as the great hope, but really claiming a sense of of power and dignity and authority and leadership and um I have hoped for the next century um because I think there are a lot of good people stirring up trouble. Things probably will get worse before they get better, but that tends to be how social movements operate.

Neely Fuller: Well, I gonna finish with what I started with, uh one of the major points that I started with. And that is somewhere along the line, if this thing is gonna work, that is replacing white supremacy with justice, it means that there's gonna have to be some type of arrangement, I'll say relationship really, because we already have an arrangement and it's not working. A relationship that takes into account the fact that there is such a thing as preservation of species. People are talking about saving the seals, they're talking about the whales and the butterflies, etc. Now along with that at an instinctive level, there are millions of white people on this planet who do not want their offspring or their grand offspring to be black. And that's got to be faced head on. And when you come to the table that's one of the first things that's got to be talked about before you even get to anything else. You've got to go straight for the sex thing. This business, particularly between black males and white females. That's got to be talked about openly, and it's got to be talked about by everybody and it's got to be talked about cross the board, all ‘I's dotted and all ‘T's crossed.

John Bilal: Mr. Fuller?

Neely Fuller: Then get worked out where you can bottom-line how that's going to play out in the end so that people can then settle back and make an arrangement where the white species does not disappear.

John Bilal: Mr. Fuller?

Neely Fuller: (unintelligible)

John Bilal: Mr. Fuller, do you see that happening, I mean, based on uh the way that things are moving, the direction that things are moving, do you see that happening and if that should happen, what would you suspect would happen next.

Neely Fuller: Well you can get justice, but you have to, first of all, talk about what you're really talking about, rather dance around it. For years and years and years, all I've seen particularly in the last 30 or 40 years, is both black people and white people dancing around that particular subject. And when it's brought up, somebody will say something that's almost mealy-mouth like, well to each is own and love conquers all, and all that etc., etc., etc., nonsense. It doesn't work like that. You might as well hit the hard buttons and hit them fast and hard right now, if you're going do any kind of business that makes sense. You're going to have to figure out how many white people are going to be on this planet because when you mix black with white, somewhere down the line you're going to have all black because that black gene will devastate white. And we might as well come on and talk about it and be up front about it and just be business-like about it and make an arrangement just like you do with the butterflies and the seals, so that we can have some order without black people having to walk around looking over their shoulder thinking that white are going to attack them because white have this fear of genetic annihilation. Because that's what's happening. It's been happening all over the planet but people get to the place where people want to talk about it less and less, that when they do, they it in a mealy-mouth, non-business-like fashion. That nonsense has got to stop.

John Bilal: Dr. Avayzian, here at the Goddard Space Center, I'm sure you're aware that NASA and Goddard Space are I guess purported to be like some of the premier scientific minds on the planet. I'm sure in your experience in moving about, and I saw in your literature that your group has gone to various places and various locations in discussing the topic of racism with various people, do you find that when you talk to organizations and people who have a scientific inclination that you do any better in getting your point across or not.

Dr. Avayzian: Well, we have (unintelligible), I would say the scientists I've worked with have been members of the faculty, for example Smith College, Mount Holy College, Dartmouth College. I worked, specifically, science faculty at every one of those institutions. Um, and I think that um when we speak to scientists it isn't really that much different when we speak to other folks. I mean every group we come and work with, we try and listen to them and (unintelligible) ... level of sophistication of the understanding where they're stuck, how can we move them forward. And every group thinks they're very special and very unique, but um the misperceptions are shared nationwide, the inaccuracies, the misinformation that people have learned are sought of shared nationwide. Um, we would do a lot of listening and figure out where people are and what they need to move forward, um, but uh so I don't, I I don't have a lot to say about that. I think that it would be an exciting experience to work with, you know, right uh, people who have concern about these issues and are awake and aware and ready to challenge and um, but I think that in terms of receptivity it just varies group by group and in every group there's some real receptive and ready-to-go sophisticated folks who already have an analysis and want to move forward and they're with you from moment 1. And there are some folks who are resistant until the moment you leave. That it doesn't make sense and it's not how they see it and they're clinging to their past beliefs that they don't want a new paradigm and then there's sort of a bulge of people in the middle.

John Bilal: Mr. Fuller, I mean, can you address that. In working here at Goddard myself you know I've have interaction and I guess my experience has been some as to what Dr. Avayzian just pointed out. But it seems to me that if a person has a scientific mind that they would be able to break through this problem and like you said in a recent talk that you gave, that the best people should be on this hideous problem.

Neely Fuller: It's the smartest people that are the people that should always step forward to solve any problem. And there are always smart at any given time in history who can step forward and solve a problem. Uh, people are just given that, sometimes people call them geniuses or they call them guilty people, sometimes it's one person, sometimes it's a whole family of people or a people in different families, or people in different groups. But whoever the smart people are should step forward and solve the problem. Now when they don't, it means that the people who are ignorant are supposed to get smart and then they take over and do the job themselves. And they do it in the fashion that's best suited for their level of uh expertise, which is probably not as, at the same level of the people who are already smart, i.e., the people who could have done what they needed to do. So this business about uh, who should take charge of repairing damage should always be assigned to the smartest person. If there's 10 people in a room, the smartest person in repairing that particular damage should step forward. If that person refuses to step forward, that person shouldn't have anything to say about the person who takes over the job and then tears it all apart and messes it up or whatever. The person who didn't step forward is absolutely the blame. This is why when I made my talk out there at Goddard space center, I made it clear I am not the best person for job of trying to solve the race problem, because there are people who are smarter than me, presumably. These people are supposed to be getting out of their beds and doing this work. If they don't, they cannot say that they are not the blame for whatever happens from that point on. In other words, you let the lunatics take over the asylum, so be it.

John Bilal: Dr. Avayzian. Dr. Avayzian?

Dr. Avayzian: Yes.

John Bilal: Yes, I would to get your comments about the recent, I guess you could say, recent wave of language concerning cultural diversity and/or multiculturalism. Do you believe that this is an effective way to address the problem of racism. If so, why and if not, why not?

Dr. Avayzian: This I think is going to be my last response because I need to step into a 1:00 meeting and um so I will make this my closing response. I think that the wave of multiculturalism is one good effort. I think that we need many efforts and I um I think that we need many approaches to a huge and a brutal and a pervasive problem. Uh and I think that multi-culturalism education and anti (unintelligible) work with children and any work that embraces a pluralistic approach to society with shared power. I think it's a very good thing. I don't that it is THE answer. I actually don't think there is one answer. I think that there are um, there's a need for many approaches and many good minds and and gatherings of people engaging in this work. Um, my feeling is that the wave of multi-culturalism is uh, is a good effort. Some of it I think is uh marginalized and focuses on the trivial. I think some of it is actually worthwhile in changing minds and hearts. But I am a strong proponent of a combination of efforts that will attack this problem and keep the issue of um racism and the struggle as far as anti-racism, alive, um, in this country and in the consciousness in the minds of white people and people of color alike.

John Bilal: Yes, Dr. Avayzian, we really appreciate your input into this dialogue. We intend to use this dialogue to inform and speak with other groups on center who have as a goal to eradicate things like this and create a counter-racist force and thank you for the interview.

Dr. Avayzian: Thank you very much and Mr. Fuller I'm very ... been influenced by your comments and your analysis so thank you for sharing it openly and for affecting my thinking as well.

Neely Fuller: Then, I thank you for this exchange of views.

Dr. Avayzian: I, appreciate it. I appreciate the the chance to have an exchange with you and my best to all of you. I'll be signing off.

John Bilal: Thank you.

Dr. Avayzian: Bye, bye now.

John Bilal: Bye. Mr. Fuller?

Neely Fuller: I'm here.

John Bilal: Yes, do you have any comments?

Neely Fuller: Well, none. It was a constructive exchange of views, just like I said, uh anything that doing what we're supposed to be doing, we're talking about the major problem on the entire planet, before we transfer it to some other planet and have to do it all over again there, in that it is always important. We're talking about THE major problem on this planet and we're not going to be able to solve any major problem between people, scientific problems, yes. Trying to get a better computer, yes. That'll be a snap. That's getting to be a piece of cake. But what you put on that computer is getting to be a problem, because people do not interact with each other correctly and they don't do so because white supremacy has not been replaced with justice and you can't solve any major problem of the people on this earth until you do that. And scientific people are supposed to have been, supposed to have figured this out, really, a long time before now, rather than going into denial or say that that's something that could be put on the back burner. Unless the people who are really smart have decided that they like it the way that it is, and that this going thru mechanical motions in mistreating people everyday and glorifying violence and death as you see in all the bookstores, and on the uh videos, and the television programs and just say that this is a "normal" way to live on this planet, then so be it. But, uh, the position of the counter racist logic is that there's a better way. That justice, i.e., balance between people, IS better than racism. Racism gets a lot of things done in a short period of time. Justice is the longer way around, but it makes for a much better environment. Now that is the feeling that I have, otherwise, why bother.

John Bilal: The counter racist position, that, at least my comprehension has a position that white people need to take an active part in dismantling racism. This is one of the reasons why Dr. Avayzian when she made her comments on the Dorothy Heely Show, that the things she was saying on that show and the things she has said here today sort of parallel things that are in the code. And I thought it was an excellent interview.

Neely Fuller: I thought so.

John Bilal: Any other questions? We're at the end of our interview time, Mr. Fuller.

Neely Fuller: And thank you very much.

John Bilal: And thank you.

This interview is brought to you by the Awake Study Group, c/o Black History Club at GSFC at Greenbelt Maryland. Any inquiries as to this document should be directed to John S. Bilal II, Workforce Diversity Committee at Code 220, NASA, GSFC, Greenbelt Road, Greenbelt, Maryland 20771. Thank You, PEACE.

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